Pat Brown

pennylane wrote:

Sunflower27 wrote:I think he was pissed and he panicked. It was dark and he knew he had to get rid of the body ASAP, not try and fit it in a bag, just take the body and get it away (in the dark) as quick as possible.

Sunflower, I agree with you totally; I have always believed the Smiths saw McC in a blind panic, rushing to hide M!

Why the rush?if we are to believe the dogs & where the signals were then gerry had at least an extra minute to use a..for example,blue bag
& the evidence in the scenic involved cold storage so could be argued that there was somewhere with a fridge/freezer available in advance of may3rd

pennylane wrote:

Sunflower27 wrote:I think he was pissed and he panicked. It was dark and he knew he had to get rid of the body ASAP, not try and fit it in a bag, just take the body and get it away (in the dark) as quick as possible.

Sunflower, I agree with you totally; I have always believed the Smiths saw McC in a blind panic, rushing to hide M!

Hi there

I don't know much about the Smiths, as in they didn't try and make big names for themselves off the back of all this.

For them to say they believe that it was Gerry, makes me think they were pretty damn sure. To say it was Gerry was not going to be met favourably, but they were upfront about it and appeared to have nothing to hide about what they saw.

Did the McCanns attempt to discredit them? If so, that speaks volumes, because if Madeleine was abducted then the McCanns knew no more than anyone else about who had her and should have been very interested in a sighting of a man carrying a child a few minutes away.

Why the rush???? He was in possession of his dead child's body. I don't think he was making rational decisions. He had also been on the vino.

Sunflower27 wrote:

pennylane wrote:

Sunflower27 wrote:I think he was pissed and he panicked. It was dark and he knew he had to get rid of the body ASAP, not try and fit it in a bag, just take the body and get it away (in the dark) as quick as possible.

Sunflower, I agree with you totally; I have always believed the Smiths saw McC in a blind panic, rushing to hide M!

Hi there

I don't know much about the Smiths, as in they didn't try and make big names for themselves off the back of all this.

For them to say they believe that it was Gerry, makes me think they were pretty damn sure. To say it was Gerry was not going to be met favourably, but they were upfront about it and appeared to have nothing to hide about what they saw.

Did the McCanns attempt to discredit them? If so, that speaks volumes, because if Madeleine was abducted then the McCanns knew no more than anyone else about who had her and should have been very interested in a sighting of a man carrying a child a few minutes away.

Hi Sunflower,

The Mc's kept as quiet as a mouse about the Smith sighting... even though their mouthpiece Mitchell had endless opportunities to announce it on Sky News during his pretendy police conferences and photofits of pockman, bundleman, eggman etc etc etc!

I feel certain Jane Tanner's latterly coughed up alibi for Gerry was because they feared the game was up due to him running into the Smiths on that ill fated night. The Mc's waited until the case was good and freezing cold, and then attempted to quietly morph Tanner's sighting into the Smiths sighting........... they had to finally mention it somehow, because their silence on this matter was deafening!

imo

pennylane wrote:

Sunflower27 wrote:

pennylane wrote:

Sunflower27 wrote:I think he was pissed and he panicked. It was dark and he knew he had to get rid of the body ASAP, not try and fit it in a bag, just take the body and get it away (in the dark) as quick as possible.

Sunflower, I agree with you totally; I have always believed the Smiths saw McC in a blind panic, rushing to hide M!

Hi there

I don't know much about the Smiths, as in they didn't try and make big names for themselves off the back of all this.

For them to say they believe that it was Gerry, makes me think they were pretty damn sure. To say it was Gerry was not going to be met favourably, but they were upfront about it and appeared to have nothing to hide about what they saw.

Did the McCanns attempt to discredit them? If so, that speaks volumes, because if Madeleine was abducted then the McCanns knew no more than anyone else about who had her and should have been very interested in a sighting of a man carrying a child a few minutes away.

Hi Sunflower,

The Mc's kept as quiet as a mouse about the Smith sighting... even though their mouthpiece Mitchell had endless opportunities to announce it on Sky News during his pretendy police conferences and photofits of pockman, bundleman, eggman etc etc etc!

I feel certain Jane Tanner's latterly coughed up alibi for Gerry was because they feared the game was up due to him running into the Smiths on that ill fated night. The Mc's waited until the case was good and freezing cold, and then attempted to quietly morph Tanner's sighting into the Smiths sighting........... they had to finally mention it somehow, because their silence on this matter was deafening!

imo

Yes, this has DODGE CITY written all over it.

If Madeleine had died prior to May 3rd, they would have had a far better plan sorted and would have made it far more obvious that they all had alibies. They'd have made a point of letting the staff know they were there as close to 100% of the time as possible.

The whole night would have been executed very differently if they had time to mastermind an 'abduction'.

And the wait before the police were alerted... how long was that? Why not ring them immediately? I am guessing because it gave the McCanns enough time to calm down and get a few key points straight. Possibly also if the police arrived immediately, the Smiths could have been stopped on the way home if they were still walking around in the vicinity.

If Gerry was running around PDL like a
raving lunatic, then how did they all pull
it off by cleaning and repositioning the
layout of 5a and hoodwinking the police,
getting their stories straight etc,
all in such a short space of time?
Not to mention sobering up.

I don't think he had a dead child in his arms......dead to the world, yes, but not dead.



When he came to the end off the road, could a car off been parked ready to transport the both off them back to the apt?


Where does that road lead to?

I don't believe it happened that night ....they picked that night to announce it....IMO Madeleine was gone and hidden before the 3rd.

Sunflower27 wrote:

pennylane wrote:

Sunflower27 wrote:

pennylane wrote:

Sunflower27 wrote:I think he was pissed and he panicked. It was dark and he knew he had to get rid of the body ASAP, not try and fit it in a bag, just take the body and get it away (in the dark) as quick as possible.

Sunflower, I agree with you totally; I have always believed the Smiths saw McC in a blind panic, rushing to hide M!

Hi there

I don't know much about the Smiths, as in they didn't try and make big names for themselves off the back of all this.

For them to say they believe that it was Gerry, makes me think they were pretty damn sure. To say it was Gerry was not going to be met favourably, but they were upfront about it and appeared to have nothing to hide about what they saw.

Did the McCanns attempt to discredit them? If so, that speaks volumes, because if Madeleine was abducted then the McCanns knew no more than anyone else about who had her and should have been very interested in a sighting of a man carrying a child a few minutes away.

Hi Sunflower,

The Mc's kept as quiet as a mouse about the Smith sighting... even though their mouthpiece Mitchell had endless opportunities to announce it on Sky News during his pretendy police conferences and photofits of pockman, bundleman, eggman etc etc etc!

I feel certain Jane Tanner's latterly coughed up alibi for Gerry was because they feared the game was up due to him running into the Smiths on that ill fated night. The Mc's waited until the case was good and freezing cold, and then attempted to quietly morph Tanner's sighting into the Smiths sighting........... they had to finally mention it somehow, because their silence on this matter was deafening!

imo

Yes, this has DODGE CITY written all over it.

If Madeleine had died prior to May 3rd, they would have had a far better plan sorted and would have made it far more obvious that they all had alibies. They'd have made a point of letting the staff know they were there as close to 100% of the time as possible.

The whole night would have been executed very differently if they had time to mastermind an 'abduction'.

And the wait before the police were alerted... how long was that? Why not ring them immediately? I am guessing because it gave the McCanns enough time to calm down and get a few key points straight. Possibly also if the police arrived immediately, the Smiths could have been stopped on the way home if they were still walking around in the vicinity.

I agree with you completely, it was a desperate plan that was hastily cobbled together, and it fell apart immediately.

They washed the curtains, they cleaned the floor and scrubbed the apt and even had time to break a bedroom shutter , all in preparation for the BIG show.


Saying that it was a badly hatched story....it was because it was a lie and NO amount off preparation could make it look any better.... 1 hr......1 day or a week ...wouldn't off made any difference...

He wasn't running around like a lunatic all over PDL, that is a gross exaggeration.

Pat Brown has said the sighting by the Smiths was 8 minutes away from the apartment. Which puts a whole new spin on it to me. And in this case, I am open to taking on boad all theories.

The shutter was broken? That is news to me. I thought the shutters were closed, never heard anything about them being broken.

Sunflower27 wrote:He wasn't running around like a lunatic all over PDL, that is a gross exaggeration.

Pat Brown has said the sighting by the Smiths was 8 minutes away from the apartment. Which puts a whole new spin on it to me. And in this case, I am open to taking on boad all theories.

Hi sunflower,
i think pat brown had said you could walk that route to the beach & back again in 8 minutes...if running ...even quicker
When i said earlier 'why rush'?...like kitti pointed out with the obvious cleaning of the apartment to the time it takes for a body to produce cadaverine detectable by the dogs is all time on the mccanns & tapas side to come up with a plan & a better plan than just scooping maddie up & running to the rocks & hope for the best that a search doesn't find their daughter...their plan could of involved a man(gerry) from the group to have with them a tapas child & a quick walk from the oc untill spotted & back again before you give kate the nod to do her 'check'...of course this is just a theory

Sunflower27 wrote:The shutter was broken? That is news to me. I thought the shutters were closed, never heard anything about them being broken.

Shutter is the parents bedroom were broken.

wonder if thats what gave them the idea for the shutters being a problem in the childrens bedroom?

They either broke the shutter AFTER or got the notion to use this scenario when she disappeared.

Sunflower27 wrote:He wasn't running around like a lunatic all over PDL, that is a gross exaggeration.

Pat Brown has said the sighting by the Smiths was 8 minutes away from the apartment. Which puts a whole new spin on it to me. And in this case, I am open to taking on boad all theories.

Hi Sunflower, I agree that Gerry being a lunatic
on the night of the 3rd May was an exaggeration.
However, your assertion that he was pissed drunk,
in a panic and carrying a dead child, to me is verging
on the ridiculous if not the height of lunacy.
In my opinion the evening of the 3rd was a staged
event conducted by cold and clinical minds.
However, not all plans go to plan as we have
discovered.The Smith sighting was plot to fool
investigators and to cement an abductor story
well after 5a was prepared and Maddie was
secreted. However, maybe they didn't expect
their witnesses to be 9 Irish hoilday makers?

marxman wrote:If Gerry was running around PDL like a
raving lunatic, then how did they all pull
it off by cleaning and repositioning the
layout of 5a and hoodwinking the police,
getting their stories straight etc,
all in such a short space of time?
Not to mention sobering up.

I am going right back to feelings and thoughts I had right at the beginning of this case. My initial thought was that if I wanted to hide a body, where exactly? My answer to myself was in a rubbish bin, retrieving the body before the bin men came to empty it, which I think I am right in saying would be sometime during the night over there. I would depart the apartment in a leisurely fashion with a black bag and place the bag in a bin. That would not be an unusual sight for anyone to see. I would make sure it was retrievable. There would be some sort of identifying feature on the black bag i.e. a hanky or something tied around the bag. Yes, it would be dirty work getting it back out of the bin but a fit, tall person could jump in there and retrieve it and it would probably be fairly near the top of any other rubbish in there.

Then the bag with body inside it would be moved to another location. I am envisaging this would all be happening in the early hours of the morning.

If everyone is looking for a live child and if dogs are sniffing around, I would have thought a body in a bag placed in a bin which has a lid on would not alert any dogs to it, and it would give someone breathing space to think of another location.

The McCanns did venture out in the early hours of the morning in the hours immediately after Madeleine went missing.

As for clearing up, this would not take too long to do, given that the police were not called for 45 minutes or so after discovery of her 'missing'.

Were curtains really laundered? Freshly washed material is easily identifiable, it smells fragrant. No I doubt it. Anyway, if they had been a maid would have noticed I think. The outside appearance would look different with no curtains up.

Floors and walls are easily washed down - it was not an enormous apartment.

The community dustbins - dumpsters - are usually gathered at regular corners of the street and do not change location from week to week, They are useually in a prominnent position so it would have been a bit of a risk if Gerry had been seen dumping a black rubbish bag as he might have been spotted. Also they would have no guarentee that either the police or helpers might search through rubbish bins.

Carrying a blue tennis bag to the beach at that time of night would be very noticable and very suspicious.

Carrying a child through the streets would be less obvious - more the norm as JT gives us the clue which I believe had been previously discussed - the least risk would be to carry the child on view through the streets - who would suspect??

From JT's statement - 'At the time she had not paid him much attention because it is common, at the OC, for children to pass in the arms of their parents between the cr?he and their respective homes, when they have collected them from the baby-sitting service'

Gerry had hoped others would not pay him much attention too - until of course - he ran into the Smiths!!

I must say i'm quite confused now about who this person was who the Smiths saw. If there was any chance that it was the abductor wouldn't you have thought it would be better publicised by the police and even the McCanns team over the years. But no, a lot of people haven't even heard of it. And if it was somebody entirely innocent carrying a child they surely would have come forward by now.

MaryB wrote:I must say i'm quite confused now about who this person was who the Smiths saw. If there was any chance that it was the abductor wouldn't you have thought it would be better publicised by the police and even the McCanns team over the years. But no, a lot of people haven't even heard of it. And if it was somebody entirely innocent carrying a child they surely would have come forward by now.

Yes in any other 'investigation' you would have thought this person would be top of the list to eliminate or become number one suspect !

I think the body was disposed of immediately as I think putting it anywhere for safe keeping was so dangerous as once the news broke the media were constantly watching the mccann's.

Marxman - I do not believe upon finding his daughter dead that gerry was in any way thinking rationally about how he was going to dipose of a body. From my reading, I believe Madeleine fell behind the sofa and died, and I believe she lay there long enough for the cadavar to become present. I think gerry probably saw the sofa at a weird angle, having been pushed out when she fell behind it.

Maybe he picked her up and moved her to the cupboard thinking initially 'I'll put her body out of sight' but then panicked about someone walking in and then realised he had to get rid of the body immediately.

I really am open to hearing any other theory that explains things better, but I have found quite a lot on this forum some that people have their minds made up about what happened and have spent a lot of their time attempting to explain and convince others that what they think happened is actually what happened. And I suppose it makes sense when people have invested so much time.

I would presume most people on here, if they found their child dead, would call an ambulance immediately and raise the alarm, but we are dealing with a couple here that had so much to lose in their mind (their professions and livelihood and not to mention the status they held in their community) that I don't think any of us can say 'it would be lunacy to do x, y and z.' Of course it would appear to be lunacy to most people.

If Gerry took the body and ran with it trying to get rid of it, he was no doubt aware that he was going to have to stage a fake abduction and the body would have to be moved out of sight as quick as possible. A local bin was too obvious, as was an apartment. Having the body found, and possibly with sedatives, was too damning and there is no way he would avoid suspicion.

But then, most people wouldn't leave a child alone in an apartment, possibly sedate them... go off jogging, refuse to answer questions, refuse a reconstruction.

I really hope that one day soon someone does crack this case. I long for the day the story of what really happened to little Madeleine breaks so we all know what really happened to her.

I'd also imagine anyone seen carrying a child that night that was perfectly innocent would have said 'hey, I was out walking that night with my child' as the case was so high profile it isn't like anyone in the close vicinity would not have been aware what happened and could have seen anything that night - they would know how important being there at that time was.

Initially I wondered why, if they were involved in Maddie`s demise, they reported it that evening rather than wait until the morning. Surely, if an accident happened, they would need many hours of planning what to do with her body before announcing it to the world, when they could say they woke in the morning and found her gone. Maybe the initial intention was to announce it the following morning, by which time the body would have been secreted away somewhere, but bumping into the Smiths scuppered the plan. In which case GM would have phoned Kate and said he`d been spotted so they would have to announce it that very evening. KM then has to go and do a check and say she`s found her gone. Maybe JT did actually see a man carrying a child and said so in front of too many people to go back on it after she was informed it was actually GM. Hence the vague descriptions and timelines. I`m sure the announcement would have been left until the morning had it not been for the Smiths.

Lioned wrote:

MaryB wrote:I must say i'm quite confused now about who this person was who the Smiths saw. If there was any chance that it was the abductor wouldn't you have thought it would be better publicised by the police and even the McCanns team over the years. But no, a lot of people haven't even heard of it. And if it was somebody entirely innocent carrying a child they surely would have come forward by now.

Yes in any other 'investigation' you would have thought this person would be top of the list to eliminate or become number one suspect !

The Smith sighting was a setup. It never really happened