Loose ends of the case only cleared up with the process reopened/J Morais

DNA from rootless hairs, eh?

So, while Gerald thinks he's really so very clever, there are folk elsewhere in the Scientific Community who actually are clever - as clever as a sack of ferrets, it seems.

This is good stuff - not sure if the new technique is Admissible as Evidence, but that probably doesn't matter.

The End Is Nigh wrote:DNA from rootless hairs, eh?

So, while Gerald thinks he's really so very clever, there are folk elsewhere in the Scientific Community who actually are clever - as clever as a sack of ferrets, it seems.

This is good stuff - not sure if the new technique is Admissible as Evidence, but that probably doesn't matter.

I don't think it is a new technique. As far as I know, the DNA that is found in rootless hair is mtDNA (mitochondrial) which comes from the maternal line and only shows familial relationship and cannot identify an individual. I know that techniques for analysing mtDNA were being used in 2001 because that is when the book "The Seven Daughters of Eve," by Bryan Sykes was published. This book traced the movements of people through investigating mtDNA in populations. So, not a new technique as far as I am aware.

No matter - if it is now to be used and if it turns up further Intelligence .......................

The End Is Nigh wrote:No matter - if it is now to be used and if it turns up further Intelligence .......................

The only identification it could make is whether the hair belonged to a member of the McCann family, related to Kate. This means it could be Sean, Amelie or Madeleine.

That's still Intelligence (Directing, but not of itself conclusive), though - but I understand the need for caution. Mustn't let a wave of relentless optimism take over.

Hang on a minute - surely the stuff sent to FSS was destroyed, with none remaining? If some was held back by the PJ, then that's a new ball game; one with endless possibilities.

I don't think that the question of admissible evidence is too much of barrier to finding out what happened. I've often thought in the past (and indeed posted here and elsewhere that there are different stages in an investigation. Finding out what happened is one, and I have always been pretty confident that the PJ did exactly that. Securing a conviction is a different matter. You have to provide evidence which is beyond reasonable doubt and which is admissible. The evidence available to the PJ fell down on a few counts five years ago. The phone stuff was inadmissible - but that doesn't mean they didn't have it, and it doesn't mean it's not damning. It means it's not allowed in court. The DNA evidence was deemed inconclusive in Portuguese law as I understand it, so couldn't play any part in a conviction. But the PJ had it.

The McCanns' medical details, financial stuff, Madeleine's health records, circumstantial things - all these helped Amaral and his team to reach a conclusion that they firmly believed had bottomed the mystery. But if it's not allowed they can't convict.

Has that all begun to change? Has DNA testing had its standards changed in Portugal? Has DNA analysis advanced over the last 5 years? Is there, after all, more material to analyse? Has someone had a change of heart about their statement to the PJ or to LP? Has a snippet of telephone information come to light? Has the implosion of the media/police/politician club produced some fall-out? Is there something that both sides know must be shortly revealed? I don't know.

But one thing's certain. All this about the PJ reviewing the case, the 'new' photo, the DNA, the PJ Inspector honey-trap story, the frantic twitter and forum activity, the Bennett case, the Amaral case, it means something's up. It's getting hectic isn't it?

It's a bit like going to a concert, or a play. We're sitting there waiting and the lights are still on and we become aware of figures behind the curtain beginning to shift, the orchestra is all settling down, the curtain's twitching. Feet are visible scurrying below its hem, the audience begins to quieten.

There's an expectant hush in the auditorium, and we're all anticipating to the spectacle. None of us, unfortunately have programmes, we don't know aht to expect

i like your theatrical analogy, nospinnaker!

About four years ago I compared this saga with Waiting For Godot.
I think even Vladimir and Estragon might have given up by now, but not us!

Interestingly, Beckett also wrote a play called Endgame.

I think we are now at the start of the endgame as we await curtain up.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endgame_%28play%29

The End Is Nigh wrote:That's still Intelligence (Directing, but not of itself conclusive), though - but I understand the need for caution. Mustn't let a wave of relentless optimism take over.

If the analysis shows that the hair belonged to a child of Kate McCann and showed historic sedative/soporific drug administration, then I think that would be cause for optimism.

@nospinnaker

All is not lost ........I read ages ago that the Portugese Forensics while not as well equipped as the FSS nevertheless was adequate. The PJ were so
fed up with the time it took for the FSS to send reports, did a little experiment. Sent samples to the PF and FSS simultaneously and 2 weeks later the
PF had sent the Report, the FSS took much longer. Although the FSS destroyed their samples saying "the PJ never asked for their return," we still have
the PF Reports and the original report from the FSS saying 15 of the 19 ayelles match.

The discovery of new indicia could lead to the formal reopening of the process. If this occurs, proceedings can be made in order to fill up the voids in the case. One of them has to do with the analysis of the hair samples, found in the trunk of a car, rented by the McCann couple 20 days after the disappearance of their daughter.

At that time, the hairs fibres were sent to a Laboratory in Birmingham, that admitted that they could belong to Maddie. However, since they had no roots, it was not possible to identify [and extract nuclear] the DNA. They were returned.

Today that problem seems to have been overcomed. There are now laboratories in Germany and in Holland with the technical capacity to identify the DNA using rootless hairs. They may even provide information on possible drug substances that have been ingested.

It should be recalled, that at the time, information was divulged that the children were given pharmaceuticals drugs in order to help them fall asleep.

This could certainly re-open the case & eggman/bundleman/monsterman/cooperman can relax & end their self imposed curfew

AnnaEsse wrote:

The End Is Nigh wrote:DNA from rootless hairs, eh?

So, while Gerald thinks he's really so very clever, there are folk elsewhere in the Scientific Community who actually are clever - as clever as a sack of ferrets, it seems.

This is good stuff - not sure if the new technique is Admissible as Evidence, but that probably doesn't matter.

I don't think it is a new technique. As far as I know, the DNA that is found in rootless hair is mtDNA (mitochondrial) which comes from the maternal line and only shows familial relationship and cannot identify an individual. I know that techniques for analysing mtDNA were being used in 2001 because that is when the book "The Seven Daughters of Eve," by Bryan Sykes was published. This book traced the movements of people through investigating mtDNA in populations. So, not a new technique as far as I am aware.

I HAVE GOT A COPY OF THE SEVEN DAUGHTERS OF EVE,HAVEN'T READ IT FOR A WHILE

Panda wrote:

@nospinnaker

All is not lost ........I read ages ago that the Portugese Forensics while not as well equipped as the FSS nevertheless was adequate. The PJ were so
fed up with the time it took for the FSS to send reports, did a little experiment. Sent samples to the PF and FSS simultaneously and 2 weeks later the
PF had sent the Report, the FSS took much longer. Although the FSS destroyed their samples saying "the PJ never asked for their return," we still have
the PF Reports and the original report from the FSS saying 15 of the 19 ayelles match.

panda thats what ive been posting on another thread , in the early days dont know if anyone can remember samples were sent to spain too ?? that was posted on 3as . enough in conviction in uk america and other countries but not portugal

Badboy wrote:

AnnaEsse wrote:

The End Is Nigh wrote:DNA from rootless hairs, eh?

So, while Gerald thinks he's really so very clever, there are folk elsewhere in the Scientific Community who actually are clever - as clever as a sack of ferrets, it seems.

This is good stuff - not sure if the new technique is Admissible as Evidence, but that probably doesn't matter.

I don't think it is a new technique. As far as I know, the DNA that is found in rootless hair is mtDNA (mitochondrial) which comes from the maternal line and only shows familial relationship and cannot identify an individual. I know that techniques for analysing mtDNA were being used in 2001 because that is when the book "The Seven Daughters of Eve," by Bryan Sykes was published. This book traced the movements of people through investigating mtDNA in populations. So, not a new technique as far as I am aware.

I HAVE GOT A COPY OF THE SEVEN DAUGHTERS OF EVE,HAVEN'T READ IT FOR A WHILE

Fascinating book!

cass wrote:

Panda wrote:

@nospinnaker

All is not lost ........I read ages ago that the Portugese Forensics while not as well equipped as the FSS nevertheless was adequate. The PJ were so
fed up with the time it took for the FSS to send reports, did a little experiment. Sent samples to the PF and FSS simultaneously and 2 weeks later the
PF had sent the Report, the FSS took much longer. Although the FSS destroyed their samples saying "the PJ never asked for their return," we still have
the PF Reports and the original report from the FSS saying 15 of the 19 ayelles match.

panda thats what ive been posting on another thread , in the early days dont know if anyone can remember samples were sent to spain too ?? that was posted on 3as . enough in conviction in uk america and other countries but not portugal

Hi Cass, Either the Portugese Police were/are incompetent or there was interference from Gordon Brown and Socrates because there was talk Brown would sign the Treaty in consideration for Socrates arranging the discontinuance of the search which is why the case was shelved. This is hearsay of
course.

Maybe relevant:
Stephen Lawrence Forensic to be used in Madeleine
https://missingmadeleine.forumotion.net/t18546-stephen-lawrence-forensic-to-be-used-in-madeleine-mccann-case-littlemorsals

A morphological comparison should have been done using the twins hair samples and the samples from the tops belonging to Madeleine ( ref. SJM2, 4 and 5 ) , then once it was established that any of the hairs did not match / belong to the twins, an mtDNA test would confirm if any of those hairs came from another maternally related child /sibling.


Also Hair contains trace quantities of metals like Gold, Sodium and Copper, which can be quantified by a process called Neutron Activation Analysis. The combination and quantity of these metals are unique in every individual to within a probability of one out of a million.

Hi Eli, I know nothing about Forensics but the first samples from the Scenic showed 15 of 19 'markers. which Stuart Prior said would have been sufficient to take any case to Court in the U.K. A second Report showed the twins DNA was sufficient proof that they were the siblings of the McCanns
but Madeleine's could not be proved presumably from the pillowcase taken from Madeleine's bed. I never understood how after 5 days living in 5a
there was no DNA available from Madeleine.s clothes or sandals. Why did Gerry take only one item from rothley, surely Madeleine would have had
books , games etc in her bedroom.

Panda wrote:

Hi Eli, I know nothing about Forensics but the first samples from the Scenic showed 15 of 19 'markers. which Stuart Prior said would have been sufficient to take any case to Court in the U.K. A second Report showed the twins DNA was sufficient proof that they were the siblings of the McCanns
but Madeleine's could not be proved presumably from the pillowcase taken from Madeleine's bed. I never understood how after 5 days living in 5a
there was no DNA available from Madeleine.s clothes or sandals. Why did Gerry take only one item from rothley, surely Madeleine would have had
books , games etc in her bedroom.

Hi Panda,

In order to state that there were enough components for someone to identify an individual, those components had to ‘match’ that particular individuals reference sample.

In other words enough components or markers to distinguish who’s DNA it was. In this instance – all confirmed components in the profile of Madeleine McCann.

As for anyone else having ALL the same components, 1 person in xxxx number of million people chosen at random would ‘match ‘ ALL the same components.

ELI wrote:

Panda wrote:

Hi Eli, I know nothing about Forensics but the first samples from the Scenic showed 15 of 19 'markers. which Stuart Prior said would have been sufficient to take any case to Court in the U.K. A second Report showed the twins DNA was sufficient proof that they were the siblings of the McCanns
but Madeleine's could not be proved presumably from the pillowcase taken from Madeleine's bed. I never understood how after 5 days living in 5a
there was no DNA available from Madeleine.s clothes or sandals. Why did Gerry take only one item from rothley, surely Madeleine would have had
books , games etc in her bedroom.

Hi Panda,

In order to state that there were enough components for someone to identify an individual, those components had to ‘match’ that particular individuals reference sample.

In other words enough components or markers to distinguish who’s DNA it was. In this instance – all confirmed components in the profile of Madeleine McCann.

As for anyone else having ALL the same components, 1 person in xxxx number of million people chosen at random would ‘match ‘ ALL the same components.

Thanks Eli, so if Stuart Prior was correct, why did FSS say they could not confirm Madeleine's DNA in the second test ? FSS I beleive has since been
sold to an American company and the FSS said they destroyed the samples because the PJ never asked for their return....can you beleive it!!!!

panda i hope that the pj have got other samples .i cannot believe this has happened - whitewash if it has

Panda wrote:

ELI wrote:

Panda wrote:

Hi Eli, I know nothing about Forensics but the first samples from the Scenic showed 15 of 19 'markers. which Stuart Prior said would have been sufficient to take any case to Court in the U.K. A second Report showed the twins DNA was sufficient proof that they were the siblings of the McCanns
but Madeleine's could not be proved presumably from the pillowcase taken from Madeleine's bed. I never understood how after 5 days living in 5a
there was no DNA available from Madeleine.s clothes or sandals. Why did Gerry take only one item from rothley, surely Madeleine would have had
books , games etc in her bedroom.

Hi Panda,

In order to state that there were enough components for someone to identify an individual, those components had to ‘match’ that particular individuals reference sample.

In other words enough components or markers to distinguish who’s DNA it was. In this instance – all confirmed components in the profile of Madeleine McCann.

As for anyone else having ALL the same components, 1 person in xxxx number of million people chosen at random would ‘match ‘ ALL the same components.

Thanks Eli, so if Stuart Prior was correct, why did FSS say they could not confirm Madeleine's DNA in the second test ? FSS I beleive has since been
sold to an American company and the FSS said they destroyed the samples because the PJ never asked for their return....can you beleive it!!!!

I think what people need to consider is that the interpretation of the results are based on someone’s opinion and as we all know opinions vary considerably.

I'm not sure of this, but I believe that recent developments in hair analysis means that it can be stated whether the samples were from a person alive when they were deposited, or dead when they were deposited. Do others remember that this was discussed a while ago? Comments appreciated.

comperedna wrote:I'm not sure of this, but I believe that recent developments in hair analysis means that it can be stated whether the samples were from a person alive when they were deposited, or dead when they were deposited. Do others remember that this was discussed a while ago? Comments appreciated.

It might be something called post - mortem root banding that you're thinking off ? This is something that happens when hairs are still attached to a body which has been dead for about 8hrs I believe.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2114252/Teenager-spends-months-bars-DNA-blunder-fingers-rape-city-visited.html


It looks like LGC are already being criticised. One person in the comments section says that LGC used to work for FSS, I'm already confused.