info help please

I have just refreshed myself on the witness and rogatory statements.
On David Paynes witness statement there is no mention of seeing Kate at around 6.30 pm on the evening of the 3rd.
On the rog. statement he says he cannot recall what Kate was wearing.
Where have I got in my mind there was confusion on when Kate actually did bathe/shower in that evening? In her witness statement she said that it was after putting the children to bed....
Any help on my confusion please?

mariang wrote:I have just refreshed myself on the witness and rogatory statements.
On David Paynes witness statement there is no mention of seeing Kate at around 6.30 pm on the evening of the 3rd.
On the rog. statement he says he cannot recall what Kate was wearing.
Where have I got in my mind there was confusion on when Kate actually did bathe/shower in that evening? In her witness statement she said that it was after putting the children to bed....
Any help on my confusion please?

Not really, but just to refresh..........

KM 1st statement....Yesterday, after the daily routine, Madeleine and the twins went into the bedroom and were put in their beds at around 7.30. The witness and her husband stayed in the apartment, relaxing, until 8.30pm. She took a bath, did her make-up and drank a glass of New Zealand wine with her husband.
KM 2nd statement..............While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes. After showering, at around 6:30/6:40 p.m. and while she was getting dry, she heard somebody knocking at the balcony door. She wrapped herself in a towel and went to see who was at the balcony door. This door was closed but not locked as Gerry had left through this door. She saw that it was David Payne,

Gerry M.......At around 17h00 the OCEAN CLUB nannies conducted MADELEINE and the other children from the crèche on the 1st floor of the main reception to the area next to the TAPAS, under awnings, where they had dinner under the supervision of the employees and, at times, of their own parents. Dinner ended at around 17h30, the time at which the employees’ supervision ended and the parents took over watching the children in the ”TAPAS” play area until 18h30. Then they returned to the apartment, the deponent opened the main door with his key and, then, the back door through which KATE and the children entered.

After doing the hygiene, the children were put to bed about 19h30, and the deponent and KATE left for dinner at the TAPAS at around 20h30. Between 19h30 and 20h30 they took a bath and drank wine, Portuguese or New Zealand, and a beer.

I recall a newspaper article which said Gerry was surprised after returning from tennis to find Kate had bathed the children and even had a shower herself.

The Payne so called visit was maybe to bolster the idea that all children were alive and well at this point...'little angels all in white' bla blah

Thankyou! I hadnt read the 2nd statement of Kates....was back and forth on the rogs and witness statements!!
So much confusion! Surely its not that difficult to recall your events so soon after it occurred!

Was David Payne in the know or was he just trying to be 'helpful'?

Surely with all of these conflicting statements its not that difficult a job for SY?

Morning mariang, I don't think the Paynes or Fiona's Mother were in on anything because they had a Baby Monitor which meant if one of the children cried they were able to immediately go back to their Apartment. The three other couples didn't ,which is why they wrote on the cover of the children's
book. The McCanns could have been charged for neglect which carries a 1 year sentence, or neglect causing harm which carries a 10yr sentence.

Why the Portugese did noy apply any of these charges I don't know , either they were too intimidated by the McCanns entourage or the U.K. Govt.
interfered.

mariang wrote:Thankyou! I hadnt read the 2nd statement of Kates....was back and forth on the rogs and witness statements!!
So much confusion! Surely its not that difficult to recall your events so soon after it occurred!

Was David Payne in the know or was he just trying to be 'helpful'?

Surely with all of these conflicting statements its not that difficult a job for SY?

In a nutshell she had a shower at 6.30 and a bath at approx. 7.30. Weird or what? Yet they are never really challenged on these events/timings. I mean you would know if you had a bath or a shower or both within the space of an hour or so wouldn't you?

I'm not so sure about the mother of one of the Tapas group, but I am fairly sure the rest of the group knew exactly what had happened to Madeleine and she wasn't going to be found anytime soon. What has brought me to think this way, is because I read that when the police arrived at the McCanns apartment, the group were all inside and had used the blank pages of one of Madeleine's books, to get their stories straight. book. If Madeleine had genuinely been abducted, a couple of people would have stayed behind to look after all of the children and the rest of them would have been out searching for Madeleine.

If Madeleine had genuinely been taken, there would have been no need for the group to get their stories straight. The McCanns were always going to tell the police that their children were alone, when Madeleine was taken, so getting their stories straight was a pointless excercise. Plus, if Madeleine had been genuinely abducted, the last thing on the mind of the McCanns and the Tapas group, would have been getting their stories straight. We all know what else the McCanns were doing, before the police arrived and none of what they were doing, involved looking for Madeleine.

If the McCanns were speaking the truth, they had no proof Madeleine had been abducted, she could have walked out of the unlocked apartment and gone to look for them, so there was a chance she could have been found quickly.

Of course I don't believe Madeleine was abducted, nor do I believe she walked out of the McCanns apartment. I believe she was taken out of the apartment, but only after something happened to her with the McCanns knowledge, she was then removed from their apartment, again with their knowledge.

The McCanns have told too many lies, for me to believe Madeleine was abducted, plus they admitted they never physically searched for Madeleine. In my opinion, the only parents who wouldn't search for their missing child, especially if their child has gone missing because they have left it unsupervised, when they went out, are parents who have had a hand in causing their child to disappear.

Morning kathybelle, yes, I agree, the Tapas Group ran rings around the PJ and if you read their statements they sound like retards (no offence) because
it's all um, er, yeah, .....these are all educated professional people for goodness sake.

For what it's worth, the book says, David Payne arrives at 6.40, children already bathed and looking at books, eating snacks. Kate just out of shower, wrapped in a towel.

I find it odd that David Payne would have forgotten that she was wrapped in a towel - one would have thought it would have been a slightly awkward moment.

12345 wrote:For what it's worth, the book says, David Payne arrives at 6.40, children already bathed and looking at books, eating snacks. Kate just out of shower, wrapped in a towel.

I find it odd that David Payne would have forgotten that she was wrapped in a towel - one would have thought it would have been a slightly awkward moment.

Yes, you would... he noticed what the childrern were wearing though, sort of.

So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry’s apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we’ve looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we’ve got that I was you know going to Kate’s about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it’s a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they’ve had such a great time, they’re really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can’t remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry wasn’t there but they were just all, just so at peace

????

ann_chovey wrote:

12345 wrote:For what it's worth, the book says, David Payne arrives at 6.40, children already bathed and looking at books, eating snacks. Kate just out of shower, wrapped in a towel.

I find it odd that David Payne would have forgotten that she was wrapped in a towel - one would have thought it would have been a slightly awkward moment.

Yes, you would... he noticed what the childrern were wearing though, sort of.

So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry’s apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we’ve looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we’ve got that I was you know going to Kate’s about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it’s a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they’ve had such a great time, they’re really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can’t remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry wasn’t there but they were just all, just so at peace

????

???? indeed! Sounds like they were all 'knocked out'!

The only thing I can think of is that something got lost in the translation of Kate's statements. For instance, it may mean that she went to the bathroom at 7.30 to do her make up etc, but it says she had a bath. However, if she had just taken a shower at 6.30 and appeared at the door wearing only a towel, no way would David Payne forget that! I mean he's a red blooded man, isn't he?

Perhaps he also has good taste .................... ??

Panda wrote:

Morning kathybelle, yes, I agree, the Tapas Group ran rings around the PJ and if you read their statements they sound like retards (no offence) because
it's all um, er, yeah, .....these are all educated professional people for goodness sake.

Hi Panda.

Remember all the er, erm, um rogatory statements were carried out by Leicestershire Police and most by Ivor Messiah who incidentally didn't ask ALL the questions that the PJ had requested (some notable omissions).

GM
"Then they returned to the apartment, the deponent, GM, opened the main door with his key and, then, the back door through which KATE and the children entered."

SO, they LOCKED the apartment, BOTH doors when they and the kids were NOT there, presumeably to protect anything of value, BUT left the apartment OPEN when the kids (quite valuable i assume) were left ALONE, and completely OUT OF SIGHT in there and THEY (McS) weren't! (at Tapas bar)
Still, like their friend so helpfully said AFTER Madeleine had 'disappeared'............... 'nothing of VALUE was taken' Renwick i think.
Hmmmm.

gillyspot wrote:

Panda wrote:

Morning kathybelle, yes, I agree, the Tapas Group ran rings around the PJ and if you read their statements they sound like retards (no offence) because
it's all um, er, yeah, .....these are all educated professional people for goodness sake.

Hi Panda.

Remember all the er, erm, um rogatory statements were carried out by Leicestershire Police and most by Ivor Messiah who incidentally didn't ask ALL the questions that the PJ had requested (some notable omissions).

Hi gillyspot, I thought the questions were ridiculous and most completely irrelevant, complete waste of money and time.

Panda wrote:

Morning kathybelle, yes, I agree, the Tapas Group ran rings around the PJ and if you read their statements they sound like retards (no offence) because
it's all um, er, yeah, .....these are all educated professional people for goodness sake.

Panda, you are so right about the Tapas group's grammar, I would be embarrassed if I wrote statements like the ones they wrote.

kathybelle wrote:

Panda wrote:

Morning kathybelle, yes, I agree, the Tapas Group ran rings around the PJ and if you read their statements they sound like retards (no offence) because
it's all um, er, yeah, .....these are all educated professional people for goodness sake.

Panda, you are so right about the Tapas group's grammar, I would be embarrassed if I wrote statements like the ones they wrote.

They might have reacted differently had the questions been more intelligent. Leicester Police had to be the U.K. liaison because that was where the McCanns lived. However, nobody realised how big this case would become, otherwise SY would have been the right choice IMO

Panda wrote:

kathybelle wrote:

Panda wrote:

Morning kathybelle, yes, I agree, the Tapas Group ran rings around the PJ and if you read their statements they sound like retards (no offence) because
it's all um, er, yeah, .....these are all educated professional people for goodness sake.

Panda, you are so right about the Tapas group's grammar, I would be embarrassed if I wrote statements like the ones they wrote.

They might have reacted differently had the questions been more intelligent. Leicester Police had to be the U.K. liaison because that was where the McCanns lived. However, nobody realised how big this case would become, otherwise SY would have been the right choice IMO

The questions were intelligent from the PJ sadly Messiah didn't ask them in a clear intelligent way.