What are your thoughts - Is Murat involved or not?

They don't frighten me one bit - but they do make me spit feathers and engender frequent bouts of righteous indignation!

IMO Murat wasn't involved. Actually far more likely to be Angus Symington (son of OC owner) who also ran a estate agency and had regular visits to the Ocean Club.

He was also the Murat "lookalike" although UK media seemingly forgot to mention they were related & would have known each other.



Murat on Left / Symington on Right.

Symington seemingly was never interviewed by the police (or his statement isn't in the files).

Not Born Yesterday wrote:Iris, I had no idea what "feart" meant and thought it was a typo! I hope that I'm not the only one who didn't know that it means "afraid".

Yes indeed, the McCanns and their team are a scary bunch.

Feart, a new word on me!

Iris wrote:

Not Born Yesterday wrote:I wonder why Robert Murat hasn't sued the McCanns for turning suspicion towards him and making remarks like he was a "spotter" for a paedophile gang.

Maybe he's feart. Kate did, after all, say she wanted to kill him. That's enough to terrify anybody.

I thought Kate sounded like that female character from "Just William."

"I want to kiiiiilll him but I caaaaaaan't!"

WHY WOULD KATE WANT TO KILL ROBERT MURAT?

Badboy wrote:WHY WOULD KATE WANT TO KILL ROBERT MURAT?

Maybe a habit is forming?

AnnaEsse wrote:
I thought Kate sounded like that female character from "Just William."

"I want to kiiiiilll him but I caaaaaaan't!"

Yes indeed she does sound like Violet Elizabeth Bott - she also said:
"I'm certain that he is guilty and I just want to scream"

Presumably she'd thcweam and thcweam until she is thick.

And I bet she could ...

almostgothic wrote:

AnnaEsse wrote:
I thought Kate sounded like that female character from "Just William."

"I want to kiiiiilll him but I caaaaaaan't!"

Yes indeed she does sound like Violet Elizabeth Bott - she also said:
"I'm certain that he is guilty and I just want to scream"

Presumably she'd thcweam and thcweam until she is thick.

And I bet she could ...

"I'm certain that he is guilty and I just want to scream"

Lord save us from this pre-teen forty-something-year-old!!

marxman wrote:

Not Born Yesterday wrote:Iris, I had no idea what "feart" meant and thought it was a typo! I hope that I'm not the only one who didn't know that it means "afraid".

Yes indeed, the McCanns and their team are a scary bunch.

Feart, a new word on me!

Ah well, you're probably not Scottish or read The Broons or Oor Wullie.

I thought it was FART...

I bet Mister Gerry and those poor twins know what "feart" means.

I am reading all the above posts with great interest. For my part, I am pretty certain Murat was not involved, but cannot be 100% as I think we should all keep an open mind.

Just out of interest, can anyone here inform of when the Tapas lot first said they saw Murat hanging about outside on the night Madeleine disappeared?

I think this is important.

I posted elsewhere (under The Fridge ), about the lack of arguing and mud-slinging amongst them all, the lack of blame upon each other, it makes me wonder also about Murat. I say this because if this had been a genuine abduction then everyone would be looking inwards and outwards at each other and at others outside and if anyone had seen anyone else lurking around the apartments a description would have been given to the police that very night. I seem to recollect, correct me if I am wrong, that no such description was given until Murat was mentioned a few days later as a likely suspect. That strikes me as strange because on the night in question, if this were genuine, not only would they be searching for Madeleine but they would be searching for anyone who fitted the description of the guy they claim to have seen standing in the shadows. Something does not fit but it does seem to point to either Murat being set up or Murat being willing to be set up perhaps for monetary reasons or something else that's sinister.

LJC wrote:I am reading all the above posts with great interest. For my part, I am pretty certain Murat was not involved, but cannot be 100% as I think we should all keep an open mind.

Just out of interest, can anyone here inform of when the Tapas lot first said they saw Murat hanging about outside on the night Madeleine disappeared?

I think this is important.

I posted elsewhere (under The Fridge ), about the lack of arguing and mud-slinging amongst them all, the lack of blame upon each other, it makes me wonder also about Murat. I say this because if this had been a genuine abduction then everyone would be looking inwards and outwards at each other and at others outside and if anyone had seen anyone else lurking around the apartments a description would have been given to the police that very night. I seem to recollect, correct me if I am wrong, that no such description was given until Murat was mentioned a few days later as a likely suspect. That strikes me as strange because on the night in question, if this were genuine, not only would they be searching for Madeleine but they would be searching for anyone who fitted the description of the guy they claim to have seen standing in the shadows. Something does not fit but it does seem to point to either Murat being set up or Murat being willing to be set up perhaps for monetary reasons or something else that's sinister.

LJC, I need to go back and confirm this, but from memory, it was Jane Tanner who identified Murat during the time she was taken by the "spanish" police as she called them and put into the van to identify him crossing the street. It was then reported on Sky News that he was being investigated and the other three Rachel and I cannot remember which two other Tapas came forward and said they saw him on the night in question.

Just out of interest, can anyone here inform of when the Tapas lot first said they saw Murat hanging about outside on the night Madeleine disappeared?

jane tanner was the first I think. From only seeing her abductor man from the back in the dark dark night who had long hair, she then was able to name murat as the abductor a few days later by sitting with LPP's bob small in a smoked out police car outside his house

Fiona payne...mentions absolutely nothing in her 4th May statement. However, on the same day as the Fund is launched the 16th May, she suddenly remembers she saw Murat too and gives a statement. She says"

"- That she never saw this individual before, and saw him for the first time, as stated, on the night of May 3rd, around 22H39, outside, and next to the door of the McCANN apartment in the company of GNR elements, who had arrived.

- That at a certain time, he said that he was there to help the police but his behaviour was not compatible with this role, in that he looked to be leading the process, stating that he was offering his help in all that was necessary

- That she does not remember if he entered the McCANN's apartment on this night. She does not know if he spoke to GERRY, but is certain that he did not speak to KATE, in that after the disappearance of MADELEINE, the deponent stayed with [KATE] for most of the time in her [KATE's] apartment.

- That during this night, she saw him walking to and fro, the majority of the time accompanied by the police, and always with an air of authority, offering suggestions and trying to lead the situation.

- That she did not speak to him, and only observed his behaviour.

- She only came across him at around 23H30, next to the McCANN apartment, when he went there to offer his help in any way possible. She does not remember if anyone was with him at this time. "

------

From her May 16th statement fiona payne also says "- That in the following days she saw him various times with numerous reporters who were in the locale. "

However in her RI in April 2008, she now says "When I realised, in fact, it was the day he was made, erm, brought in for questioning and we were watching SKY News, it was the afternoon in my apartment and Russell was in the apartment, and obviously, you know, again, we were all very shocked, there was any progress, who is this man, and he was on telly and it showed a picture and I was like 'Oh, is that the guy that was around on the night acting as translator', you know, 'with the squint', because you couldn't see in this picture, and Russell said 'Yeah, yeah, that's him', but I hadn't seen him at all in the days following, erm, you know, Madeleine's disappearance, that, that on the telly was the next time I'd seen him'.

----

Also remember ROB had robert murats mobile number in his mobile on the morning on the 4th May! This scam is so corrupt its unreal

mossman said... I need to go back and confirm this, but from memory, it was Jane Tanner who identified Murat during the time she was taken by the "spanish" police as she called them and put into the van to identify him crossing the street. It was then reported on Sky News that he was being investigated and the other three Rachel and I cannot remember which two other Tapas came forward and said they saw him on the night in question.

Mossman it was F Payne, R Oldfield and Tanner
http://thepottingshedder.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/dr-obrien-conspicuous-by-his-absence.html[quote]

[quote="Lillyofthevalley"]

mossman said... I need to go back and confirm this, but from memory, it was Jane Tanner who identified Murat during the time she was taken by the "spanish" police as she called them and put into the van to identify him crossing the street. It was then reported on Sky News that he was being investigated and the other three Rachel and I cannot remember which two other Tapas came forward and said they saw him on the night in question.

Mossman it was F Payne, R Oldfield and Tanner
http://thepottingshedder.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/dr-obrien-conspicuous-by-his-absence.html

The PJ were told by British officials from the start that they should look at Murat as 'he fitted the profile'. The PJ did keep an eye on him, following his car and so on, but weren't keen to arrest him.
Jane Tanner fairly suddenly decided that Murat was the man and the PJ then asked her to identify him without using a line up. She was with (I think also British Police) in a van with blacked out windows on the 14th of May, she identified him positively with witnesses present.
Murat was made arguido the following day.
Only after that date I think, did the other Tapas 3 say he'd been hanging around on the night of the 3rd. After the Rothley meeting mid November, a statement to the effect that they still identified him as the suspect.
In November Brian Kennedy made a special trip to PdL and had two separate meetings with Murat - just prior to the Rothley meeting of the T 9 (the handing out of the songsheets I think).
In January the signals changed and TM said that Murat wasn't the abductor but possibly a spotter.
By the time the Ri's came round it's an interesting exercise to see how Jane is trying to get out of saying Murat was the abductor, trying to say she never really said it sort of thing. The RI's are great reading in any case.
As early as March 2008 the McCanns got 550.000 from the Express group. Murat sued the papers soon afterwards and he and his two friends got a total over 700.000.
From 12th March 2008 journalists of the Express group were forbidden to write about Madeleine.

Basically I don't think Murat was in on 'the plan' but he was known to Gerry and he helped - although not personally- hide the body. Making him suspect nr. 1 I don't think was part of the plan, but imo the McCanns desperately needed diversions because the PJ was nowhere near stupid enough to believe their stories.

Imo you don't have to do much to make Kate want to kill you, just disagreeing will be enough.
Murat did say it was the biggest 'c... up' in history. For me, that means there was something that went wrong and therefore there was 'something' that he knew had gone wrong.

So in short, the PJ appear to know other things about him which aren't published. In particular his connection with Gerry and possibly JT and the apartment in Burgau.
He did not abduct Madeleine or indeed planned her disappearance. I think the searches, press coverage and general mud slinging was far worse than he could ever have imagined. I think BK struck a deal with him in October, that during the Rothley meeting it was decided that they'd let Murat off - but slowly. Straight after the meeting would have been too obvious.

He was called back from Devon on the 30th april, arrived on the 1st of May and helped Gerry sort out a crisis. Why we will never know -
He was also followed by Metodo3 I believe in September and had both the cars he used fitted with tracking devices, probably M3 again. Altogether, I think the mcCanns used him as a patsy - probably without his consent.

All the above IMO of course!

[quote="tigger"]

Lillyofthevalley wrote:

mossman said... I need to go back and confirm this, but from memory, it was Jane Tanner who identified Murat during the time she was taken by the "spanish" police as she called them and put into the van to identify him crossing the street. It was then reported on Sky News that he was being investigated and the other three Rachel and I cannot remember which two other Tapas came forward and said they saw him on the night in question.

Mossman it was F Payne, R Oldfield and Tanner
http://thepottingshedder.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/dr-obrien-conspicuous-by-his-absence.html

The PJ were told by British officials from the start that they should look at Murat as 'he fitted the profile'. The PJ did keep an eye on him, following his car and so on, but weren't keen to arrest him.
Jane Tanner fairly suddenly decided that Murat was the man and the PJ then asked her to identify him without using a line up. She was with (I think also British Police) in a van with blacked out windows on the 14th of May, she identified him positively with witnesses present.
Murat was made arguido the following day.
Only after that date I think, did the other Tapas 3 say he'd been hanging around on the night of the 3rd. After the Rothley meeting mid November, a statement to the effect that they still identified him as the suspect.
In November Brian Kennedy made a special trip to PdL and had two separate meetings with Murat - just prior to the Rothley meeting of the T 9 (the handing out of the songsheets I think).
In January the signals changed and TM said that Murat wasn't the abductor but possibly a spotter.
By the time the Ri's came round it's an interesting exercise to see how Jane is trying to get out of saying Murat was the abductor, trying to say she never really said it sort of thing. The RI's are great reading in any case.
As early as March 2008 the McCanns got 550.000 from the Express group. Murat sued the papers soon afterwards and he and his two friends got a total over 700.000.
From 12th March 2008 journalists of the Express group were forbidden to write about Madeleine.

Basically I don't think Murat was in on 'the plan' but he was known to Gerry and he helped - although not personally- hide the body. Making him suspect nr. 1 I don't think was part of the plan, but imo the McCanns desperately needed diversions because the PJ was nowhere near stupid enough to believe their stories.

Imo you don't have to do much to make Kate want to kill you, just disagreeing will be enough.
Murat did say it was the biggest 'c... up' in history. For me, that means there was something that went wrong and therefore there was 'something' that he knew had gone wrong.

So in short, the PJ appear to know other things about him which aren't published. In particular his connection with Gerry and possibly JT and the apartment in Burgau.
He did not abduct Madeleine or indeed planned her disappearance. I think the searches, press coverage and general mud slinging was far worse than he could ever have imagined. I think BK struck a deal with him in October, that during the Rothley meeting it was decided that they'd let Murat off - but slowly. Straight after the meeting would have been too obvious.

He was called back from Devon on the 30th april, arrived on the 1st of May and helped Gerry sort out a crisis. Why we will never know -
He was also followed by Metodo3 I believe in September and had both the cars he used fitted with tracking devices, probably M3 again. Altogether, I think the mcCanns used him as a patsy - probably without his consent.

All the above IMO of course!

Didn't Lori Campbell contact British officials, who then contacted the PJ?

ETA: From 1.40 - Lori Campbell contacted Leicester Police, who advised her to contact authorities in Portugal.

Lori Campbell worked with clarence mitchell on the Soham murders. Her husband is Ross Hall (ex NOTW Journalist) who was arrested last year in the phone hacking scandal and is believed to be the man who transcribed the "for Neville" email that was sent to private investigator Glenn Mulcaire. Hall is the nephew of Phil Hall, who edited the News of the World from 1995 to 2000 and is now a PR consultant.

Thanks everybody, you see I thought that the Tapas group, or some of them, had said they had seen Murat hanging about outside the apartments before the disappearance; so it was him hanging around outside during the initial police investigation. I don't know but the way they say they l afterwards remembered seeing him on the night of the 3rd, I was not sure at what time they meant this to be.

[quote="jd16"]

Also remember ROB had robert murats mobile number in his mobile on the morning on the 4th May!

I didn`t know this jd - where did that info come from? I`m thinking why would Murat have given ROB his phone number, but then I suppose it could be in case ROB needed a translator.

[quote="Oldartform"]

jd16 wrote:

Also remember ROB had robert murats mobile number in his mobile on the morning on the 4th May!

I didn`t know this jd - where did that info come from? I`m thinking why would Murat have given ROB his phone number, but then I suppose it could be in case ROB needed a translator.

I think Murat's phone number was on ROB's phone - it's in one of the interviews. Then on the 10th June there was a phone call between ROB and Gerry which led the PJ to the deserted barn and the stained towel with links to the fibres found in the Renault.
A good question would be to find out if any of the other Tapas had Murat's number on their mobile. Because otherwise we are looking at a more special relationship between Murat, ROB and Gerry. Possibly of course.

Yes, AnnaEsse, sorry didn't answer, it was Lori Campbell the right hand of Clarrie, Lori who was there uncannily quickly and seemed great mates with the McCanns in no time. She did alert the British police to Murat. Would Kate have pointed her in that direction?
But it was a British profiler who said Murat was the one, Amaral was quite annoyed with him. The British telling the PJ what to do and so on.

[quote="Oldartform"]

jd16 wrote:

Also remember ROB had robert murats mobile number in his mobile on the morning on the 4th May!

I didn`t know this jd - where did that info come from? I`m thinking why would Murat have given ROB his phone number, but then I suppose it could be in case ROB needed a translator.

Its in his statement from July 11th. the police were asking why he had it. he says:

The deponent would like now to inform that at some time he was aware that Robert Murat
assisted police officers [by] being the interpreter. Therefore, at some time, but already the following
morning, it appeared to him, he [ROB] approached Robert Murat having asked him [RM] to give
him [ROB] his [RM's] telephone number because he [ROB] considered that at some time he might
need the support of that person [RM] given that he spoke Portuguese correctly. In truth Robert
Murat furnished him with his mobile number which the deponent inserted into the calendar/address
book of his own mobile phone. He doesn't recall exactly the time that happened but has the idea
that it was already during the morning of 4 May [i.e. it was already daylight]. In an analysis of the
calendar/address book of the mobile phone by PJ officers it was verified that the number of Robert
Murat was inserted there immediately before number 914..., indicated as being of David Priest.
Questioned the deponent states that David was an Anglican priest [English vicar?] with whom the
deponent spoke on the morning of 4 May, and [of/from] whom he had asked his [David P.'s]
telephone number. He recalls that the conversation that he had had with that vicar was
accomplished [done/made] already at the end of the morning in the Ocean Club it having been on
that occasion that the deponent introduced that number into his calendar/address book.

All highly suspicious to me

[quote="jd16"]

Oldartform wrote:

jd16 wrote:

Also remember ROB had robert murats mobile number in his mobile on the morning on the 4th May!

I didn`t know this jd - where did that info come from? I`m thinking why would Murat have given ROB his phone number, but then I suppose it could be in case ROB needed a translator.

Its in his statement from July 11th. the police were asking why he had it. he says:

The deponent would like now to inform that at some time he was aware that Robert Murat
assisted police officers [by] being the interpreter. Therefore, at some time, but already the following
morning, it appeared to him, he [ROB] approached Robert Murat having asked him [RM] to give
him [ROB] his [RM's] telephone number because he [ROB] considered that at some time he might
need the support of that person [RM] given that he spoke Portuguese correctly. In truth Robert
Murat furnished him with his mobile number which the deponent inserted into the calendar/address
book of his own mobile phone. He doesn't recall exactly the time that happened but has the idea
that it was already during the morning of 4 May [i.e. it was already daylight]. In an analysis of the
calendar/address book of the mobile phone by PJ officers it was verified that the number of Robert
Murat was inserted there immediately before number 914..., indicated as being of David Priest.
Questioned the deponent states that David was an Anglican priest [English vicar?] with whom the
deponent spoke on the morning of 4 May, and [of/from] whom he had asked his [David P.'s]
telephone number. He recalls that the conversation that he had had with that vicar was
accomplished [done/made] already at the end of the morning in the Ocean Club it having been on
that occasion that the deponent introduced that number into his calendar/address book.

All highly suspicious to me

Thanks jd, I`d forgotten about that - yes it could be suspicious but not necessarily if RM gave ROB his number in case he needed a translator. I see that was on the morning of the 4th and then ROB added the vicar`s number afterwards nearer the end of the morning.

What is more odd is that ROB, in that same statement, says RM was outside 5A at 01.00am, yet RM`s mother says he was at home all night.

"When questioned he says that the first time he saw Robert Murat was on the night of the events currently under investigation, in other words, the night upon which Madeleine disappeared, at about 01.00 in the early morning of 4th May."

"---Asked, she assures that her son Robert did not leave the house that night."

The GNR say they never saw Murat on the night as well, yet fiona payne says he was leading them!!!!! Don't think any of the OC staff saw him there that night either

None of the Tapas 9 said anything about murat until suddenly about 10 days later, when the only ones who say Murat was there that night were members of the Tapas 9....One from each couple. A setup or what!!

jd16 wrote:The GNR say they never saw Murat on the night as well, yet fiona payne says he was leading them!!!!! Don't think any of the OC staff saw him there that night either

None of the Tapas 9 said anything about murat until suddenly about 10 days later, when the only ones who say Murat was there that night were members of the Tapas 9....One from each couple. A setup or what!!

Gillyspot may be right then and it was the Symington fellow.