What are your thoughts - Is Murat involved or not?

Oldartform wrote:

jd16 wrote:The GNR say they never saw Murat on the night as well, yet fiona payne says he was leading them!!!!! Don't think any of the OC staff saw him there that night either

None of the Tapas 9 said anything about murat until suddenly about 10 days later, when the only ones who say Murat was there that night were members of the Tapas 9....One from each couple. A setup or what!!

Gillyspot may be right then and it was the Symington fellow.

Oh yes Symington and the Eveleighs.....They link to Murat, PDL, Plymouth and family, ROB, Tanner

http://minnea.blogspot.co.uk/2008/10/exeter-connectionsally-eveleigh.html

http://aangirfan.blogspot.co.uk/2009/06/grenade.html

Not Born Yesterday wrote:If anyone is interested, there is a long article about Robert Murat on the Madeleine Foundation website under the Articles heading. I do feel that there are unanswered questions about him.

I took the trouble to read the above, it's quite long read. Two points of interest that stood out. during the interview by the police, RM acknowledged knowing JM.
The other is, two men turn their phones off within six minutes of each other and don't turn them back on till 32 hours later.Again within six minutes of each other. Now, is that a coincidence, or what?

BelEddie wrote:

Not Born Yesterday wrote:If anyone is interested, there is a long article about Robert Murat on the Madeleine Foundation website under the Articles heading. I do feel that there are unanswered questions about him.

I took the trouble to read the above, it's quite long read. Two points of interest that stood out. during the interview by the police, RM acknowledged knowing JM.
The other is, two men turn their phones off within six minutes of each other and don't turn them back on till 32 hours later.Again within six minutes of each other. Now, is that a coincidence, or what?

WHO IS JM?

jd16 wrote:

Oldartform wrote:

jd16 wrote:The GNR say they never saw Murat on the night as well, yet fiona payne says he was leading them!!!!! Don't think any of the OC staff saw him there that night either

None of the Tapas 9 said anything about murat until suddenly about 10 days later, when the only ones who say Murat was there that night were members of the Tapas 9....One from each couple. A setup or what!!

Gillyspot may be right then and it was the Symington fellow.

Oh yes Symington and the Eveleighs.....They link to Murat, PDL, Plymouth and family, ROB, Tanner

http://minnea.blogspot.co.uk/2008/10/exeter-connectionsally-eveleigh.html

http://aangirfan.blogspot.co.uk/2009/06/grenade.html

NOTE THE SALLY EVELEIGH THAT WORKS FOR A CHRISTIAN CHARITY ISN'T THE SAME SALLY EVELEIGH WHO OWNS SALSITO(SP?) IN BURGAU

Badboy wrote:

BelEddie wrote:

Not Born Yesterday wrote:If anyone is interested, there is a long article about Robert Murat on the Madeleine Foundation website under the Articles heading. I do feel that there are unanswered questions about him.

I took the trouble to read the above, it's quite long read. Two points of interest that stood out. during the interview by the police, RM acknowledged knowing JM.
The other is, two men turn their phones off within six minutes of each other and don't turn them back on till 32 hours later.Again within six minutes of each other. Now, is that a coincidence, or what?

WHO IS JM?

I think this should be GM, Gerry. The bit about the phones certainly refers to him and Robert Murat.

jd16 wrote:The GNR say they never saw Murat on the night as well, yet fiona payne says he was leading them!!!!! Don't think any of the OC staff saw him there that night either

None of the Tapas 9 said anything about murat until suddenly about 10 days later, when the only ones who say Murat was there that night were members of the Tapas 9....One from each couple. A setup or what!!

And yet Murat didn't feel the need to mention or correct this in the Panorama programe when he had the chance.....yes your right, a set up.

This is an examination of the phone record from Kikoratton from about 600 pages condensed into one. It starts from the alarm being raised and working backwards


"Robert Murat turned his mobile back on after a long silent interval at 2320 on 3 May. One of his first calls was from Sergi Malinka, his computer guru. But at least one hour before KM raised the alarm, Sergi and his friends were chatting profusely by phone, leading me to wonder whether word of “something” had got out before the official announcement by Kate.
The vital piece of evidence, however, is this: RM’s mobile phone silence had begun at 1545 on 2 May, and ended at 2320 on 3 May just after KM’s shout. That’s 31h 35m of silence. Gerry had been taking numerous calls made to his voicemail box on 2 May, and effectively the last of these was at 1549. He postponed listening to this until around 2015, at which point he turned off his mobile. He took just one incoming call at 1224 on 3 May, then his mobile fell silent again until 2314. Since he didn’t make a single outgoing call during that period, and used voicemail to eliminate any possibility of identification of his callers, we can say that his period of silence (compare the figure with Murat’s) was of 31h 25m.

This is inexplicable unless you come to the conclusion that GM and RM were in cahoots, and the silence was akin to the military golden rule, of communications silence to avoid any possibility of compromise before the action kicks off.

I then consider in more detail those 12 voicemail messages which GM received on 2 May. The PJ never found out who they came from, but by any standards it was a busy eight hours for Gerry, no doubt with pen and paper in hand to take down detailed instructions and timings. As I’ve said, he postponed listening to the last two for some reason. KM’s claim that Gerry was so busy at work that he had to keep in touch with his department, is given the lie by the fact that he didn’t actually speak to anybody, and never responded with a single outgoing call.
Putting all of this together, I’m satisfied that the tragic event had not only taken place by 0800 on 2 May, but that sufficient time had passed between the event and 0800 on 2 May for Gerry to start to receive detailed plans beginning at that time.

So theoretically, death around 2345 on 1 May is still possible, although we have no indication of frantic phone communications during that night as we would expect. Which leads us neatly to those six contacts (texts or calls?) on KM’s mobile from 2216 – 2228 on that evening. (According to Mrs Fenn’s account, the crying of Madeleine started at 2230).
Might that really be the time of the tragedy? I doubt it. Look at it this way: wouldn’t we have expected some normal, “chatty” contact between the two McCanns and their Tapas chums, or with family, on 1 May and 30 April? We have absolutely none. 48 hours without mobile contact. I believe that represents 48 hours during which something very concealed was going on. And then suddenly Kate has to make six contacts in 12 minutes just before the long period when, according to Mrs Fenn , Maddie was crying. I don’t believe there is any logic which points to the tragic event happening at that time.

So I return to investigate the calls made by RM’s mobile, and in a 14 minute period between 2200 and 2214 I find six texts apparently being transmitted between his mobile and Michaela Walczuch’s. Now, as an inveterate ex-communications-intelligence jobsworth, I look at those bursts of six messages beginning at 2200 and ending at 2228 and I say “something fishy’s going on here.”
Putting this together with RM’s and Gerry’s coinciding 31-hour silences of the following day, I believe that Murat’s and Walczuch’s mobiles were being used to transmit stuff which was vital to the cover-up of a tragedy which had happened before 2200 on 1 May.

Going back still further, it can be noted that RM booked his flight on 30 April, that the same day was highlighted by phone communications between Jenny Murat and Exeter, and that he flew to Faro and arrived at PdL around 1130 on 1 May. And we should add to the mix an unexplained call to Jane Tanner at the ungodly hour of 0415 on 29 April.

Lillyofthevalley wrote: And yet Murat didn't feel the need to mention or correct this in the Panorama programe when he had the chance.....yes your right, a set up.

I know this is most strange, you know a group of people are trying to set you up for a very serious crime you didn't commit, but you do or say nothing against them & just accept libel damages from the press instead. And it is also odd that the mccanns never took any action against the Gaspars which is far more damaging than someone giving out a leaflet of facts. And the mccanns seem to ignore a valuable & probable crucial sighting with the Smiths. It is all highly suspicious and not the normal course of actions if these things were true imo

jd16 wrote:

Lillyofthevalley wrote: And yet Murat didn't feel the need to mention or correct this in the Panorama programe when he had the chance.....yes your right, a set up.

I know this is most strange, you know a group of people are trying to set you up for a very serious crime you didn't commit, but you do or say nothing against them & just accept libel damages from the press instead. And it is also odd that the mccanns never took any action against the Gaspars which is far more damaging than someone giving out a leaflet of facts. And the mccanns seem to ignore a valuable & probable crucial sighting with the Smiths. It is all highly suspicious and not the normal course of actions if these things were true imo

According to an article on the Joana Morais website, which is dated 10/02/2010, Robert Murat filed a criminal complaint against Jane Tanner, in the Criminal Court of Lagos. At that time, the case was still at the inquest stage and under the secrecy of justice. I haven't read or heard of the outcome of Robert Murat's criminal complaint against Tanner.

Also in an article that is in the McCann files, which is dated 05/03/2010 , Robert Murat continues to receive death threats and has lost all purpose of life. I once read an article where Robert Murat, also received death threats back in 2009.

I don't know what the contents of the death threats were in 2009 and what the contents of the 2010 death threats were. However if the death threats in 2009, didn't contain threats against Robert Murat's child, maybe the ones he received in 2010 were levied against his child and maybe he has dropped the case against Jane Tanner. I'm sure he could be forgiven for doing anything he can to protect his daughter and any other member of his family, who may have been named in the death threats.

According to the same article, journalists invaded the place where his ex wife and daughter lived and the police had to take his daughter to a safe place.

According to the same article, Robert Murat's ex., was offered 220 thousand euros was offered, to give an interview, stating Robert Murat was a paedophile, she refused. Robert Murat was also offered over 300 thousand euros, if he allowed himself to be filmed and to speak about the case. According to the article, he "shut up" I can only presume that if he "shut up" he was being interviewed about something that wasn't related to the case.

I haven't heard of any death threats levied against the McCanns, in fact they seem to go wherever they please, without fear of anyone getting them or their children.

Has anyone ever noticed how alike David Payne and Robert Murat are? In my opinion, they easily could pass for brothers if not twins.

By the way, Robert Murat, offered his help when the Portuguese police needed a translator, I wonder if they returned the favour to him, when he received those death threats.

Badboy wrote:

BelEddie wrote:

Not Born Yesterday wrote:If anyone is interested, there is a long article about Robert Murat on the Madeleine Foundation website under the Articles heading. I do feel that there are unanswered questions about him.

I took the trouble to read the above, it's quite long read. Two points of interest that stood out. during the interview by the police, RM acknowledged knowing JM.
The other is, two men turn their phones off within six minutes of each other and don't turn them back on till 32 hours later.Again within six minutes of each other. Now, is that a coincidence, or what?

WHO IS JM?

My mistake, sorry, GM. ( Too early in the am.)

[quote="jd16"]This is an examination of the phone record from Kikoratton from about 600 pages condensed into one. It starts from the alarm being raised and working backwards


I then consider in more detail those 12 voicemail messages which GM received on 2 May. The PJ never found out who they came from, but by any standards it was a busy eight hours for Gerry, no doubt with pen and paper in hand to take down detailed instructions and timings. As I’ve said, he postponed listening to the last two for some reason. KM’s claim that Gerry was so busy at work that he had to keep in touch with his department, is given the lie by the fact that he didn’t actually speak to anybody, and never responded with a single outgoing call.
Putting all of this together, I’m satisfied that the tragic event had not only taken place by 0800 on 2 May, but that sufficient time had passed between the event and 0800 on 2 May for Gerry to start to receive detailed plans beginning at that time.

I THOUGHT THEY WORKED OUT THE 12 DELETED WERE CONNECTED TO SOMEONE WHO BY A COMPLICATED PROCES COME FROM SOMEONE WHO POLICE WORKED OUT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CASE.

[quote="Badboy"]

jd16 wrote:This is an examination of the phone record from Kikoratton from about 600 pages condensed into one. It starts from the alarm being raised and working backwards


I then consider in more detail those 12 voicemail messages which GM received on 2 May. The PJ never found out who they came from, but by any standards it was a busy eight hours for Gerry, no doubt with pen and paper in hand to take down detailed instructions and timings. As I’ve said, he postponed listening to the last two for some reason. KM’s claim that Gerry was so busy at work that he had to keep in touch with his department, is given the lie by the fact that he didn’t actually speak to anybody, and never responded with a single outgoing call.
Putting all of this together, I’m satisfied that the tragic event had not only taken place by 0800 on 2 May, but that sufficient time had passed between the event and 0800 on 2 May for Gerry to start to receive detailed plans beginning at that time.

I THOUGHT THEY WORKED OUT THE 12 DELETED WERE CONNECTED TO SOMEONE WHO BY A COMPLICATED PROCES COME FROM SOMEONE WHO POLICE WORKED OUT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CASE.

It will be news to me if this is the case, Ive never heard about this before

[quote="jd16"]

Badboy wrote:

jd16 wrote:This is an examination of the phone record from Kikoratton from about 600 pages condensed into one. It starts from the alarm being raised and working backwards


I then consider in more detail those 12 voicemail messages which GM received on 2 May. The PJ never found out who they came from, but by any standards it was a busy eight hours for Gerry, no doubt with pen and paper in hand to take down detailed instructions and timings. As I’ve said, he postponed listening to the last two for some reason. KM’s claim that Gerry was so busy at work that he had to keep in touch with his department, is given the lie by the fact that he didn’t actually speak to anybody, and never responded with a single outgoing call.
Putting all of this together, I’m satisfied that the tragic event had not only taken place by 0800 on 2 May, but that sufficient time had passed between the event and 0800 on 2 May for Gerry to start to receive detailed plans beginning at that time.

I THOUGHT THEY WORKED OUT THE 12 DELETED WERE CONNECTED TO SOMEONE WHO BY A COMPLICATED PROCES COME FROM SOMEONE WHO POLICE WORKED OUT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CASE.

It will be news to me if this is the case, Ive never heard about this before

The only number the police said had nothing to do with the case was a Swansea number which was supposed to be a 'wrong number'. However, this same 'wrong number' pinged the mast again a few days later I think.
The phone record is quite incriminating. Something else they hadn't thought out. Just deleting the calls doesn't delete the record of the calls.
E.g. the very early morning call 4.00 am JT got from Devon on the 29th I think. Murat was in Devon at the time and mtDNA was found in the apartment in Burgau which is the property of Murat's father I believe.
I've always thought that the most incriminating thing they did on the evening of the 3rd was to delete all their calls. Child is abducted, sit down and delete calls?

kathybelle wrote:Has anyone ever noticed how alike David Payne and Robert Murat are? In my opinion, they easily could pass for brothers if not twins.

By the way, Robert Murat, offered his help when the Portuguese police needed a translator, I wonder if they returned the favour to him, when he received those death threats.

Yes, I noticed this as well. In fact there were quite a few discussions about how similar the two men looked back in the early days. There was another man, the manager of Mark Warner resort who also looked very similar to both Robert and David, I think his name was John Hill.

Strange that both Fiona and Rachel claim to have seen Robert at exactly 2330. Fiona even claims to have seem his talking to Russell at this time. Yet Russell makes no mention of talking to Robert on this night nad claims to not have seen Robert until 0100. If it was not Russell who was talking to Robert, then who was this man?

It is quite possible that the man that Rachel and Fiona saw leading the GNR and trying to talk to elements of the group was in fact the Manager of the resort, which would make perfect sense! Russell could have made the same mistake at 0100. It was dark, and not everyone has bionic eye sight like Jane Tanner.

jinvta wrote:

kathybelle wrote:Has anyone ever noticed how alike David Payne and Robert Murat are? In my opinion, they easily could pass for brothers if not twins.

By the way, Robert Murat, offered his help when the Portuguese police needed a translator, I wonder if they returned the favour to him, when he received those death threats.

Yes, I noticed this as well. In fact there were quite a few discussions about how similar the two men looked back in the early days. There was another man, the manager of Mark Warner resort who also looked very similar to both Robert and David, I think his name was John Hill.

Strange that both Fiona and Rachel claim to have seen Robert at exactly 2330. Fiona even claims to have seem his talking to Russell at this time. Yet Russell makes no mention of talking to Robert on this night nad claims to not have seen Robert until 0100. If it was not Russell who was talking to Robert, then who was this man?

It is quite possible that the man that Rachel and Fiona saw leading the GNR and trying to talk to elements of the group was in fact the Manager of the resort, which would make perfect sense! Russell could have made the same mistake at 0100. It was dark, and not everyone has bionic eye sight like Jane Tanner.

Its possible of course, but in reality to say nothing for 10 days then all of a sudden one member of each couple claim to have seen him on the night is a bit obvious. Especially when nobody else outside the group says they saw him. In truth, the Tapas 9 never thought the PJ files would be released into the public domain and that they were totally protected by the British Government. But now we can see their lies for ourselves, even if the likes of louise mensch MP thinks we are ghouls for doing so

[quote="tigger"]

jd16 wrote:

Badboy wrote:

jd16 wrote:This is an examination of the phone record from Kikoratton from about 600 pages condensed into one. It starts from the alarm being raised and working backwards


I then consider in more detail those 12 voicemail messages which GM received on 2 May. The PJ never found out who they came from, but by any standards it was a busy eight hours for Gerry, no doubt with pen and paper in hand to take down detailed instructions and timings. As I’ve said, he postponed listening to the last two for some reason. KM’s claim that Gerry was so busy at work that he had to keep in touch with his department, is given the lie by the fact that he didn’t actually speak to anybody, and never responded with a single outgoing call.
Putting all of this together, I’m satisfied that the tragic event had not only taken place by 0800 on 2 May, but that sufficient time had passed between the event and 0800 on 2 May for Gerry to start to receive detailed plans beginning at that time.

I THOUGHT THEY WORKED OUT THE 12 DELETED WERE CONNECTED TO SOMEONE WHO BY A COMPLICATED PROCES COME FROM SOMEONE WHO POLICE WORKED OUT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CASE.

It will be news to me if this is the case, Ive never heard about this before

The only number the police said had nothing to do with the case was a Swansea number which was supposed to be a 'wrong number'. However, this same 'wrong number' pinged the mast again a few days later I think.
The phone record is quite incriminating. Something else they hadn't thought out. Just deleting the calls doesn't delete the record of the calls.
E.g. the very early morning call 4.00 am JT got from Devon on the 29th I think. Murat was in Devon at the time and mtDNA was found in the apartment in Burgau which is the property of Murat's father I believe.
I've always thought that the most incriminating thing they did on the evening of the 3rd was to delete all their calls. Child is abducted, sit down and delete calls?

When your child is discovered missing what is the first thing you do?....Not think to delete all your calls from your mobile!!!!! Says it all really

That 4am call, who rings at this time unless it is very important. Especially a call to a different country where the receiver is on holiday with their family. It must have been murat or the Gorrods imo

Krisy22 wrote:Its hard to form an opinion either way when we are not sure of the facts. I have got to the stage when only facts interest me now.

I agree with this and there are very few of these that can allow you to form a definate conclusion on anything really involving this case in my opinion.

With regards to RM, I don't believe he has any knowledge of Madeleines fate however I could be wrong.

Not Born Yesterday wrote:I wonder why Robert Murat hasn't sued the McCanns for turning suspicion towards him and making remarks like he was a "spotter" for a paedophile gang.

Are you sure this is correct ?

I understood it was GA who made the initial observation having parked close to his (RMs) property on the morning of the 10th May 2007 and then alerted his team in order for them to investigate RM further.

According to this item dated 27/1/2008 from the McCann files - http://www.mccannfiles.com/id90.html - it was the McCanns' private detectives who made the comment.

If I can find anything more precise I'll add it on. Apologies, I should have checked this earlier.

Not Born Yesterday wrote:According to this item dated 27/1/2008 from the McCann files - http://www.mccannfiles.com/id90.html - it was the McCanns' private detectives who made the comment.

If I can find anything more precise I'll add it on. Apologies, I should have checked this earlier.

Lori Campbell phoned LP on the 6th with her (probably Kate-induced) suspicions of Murat.
JT told PJ on 13th that she could identify abductor as Murat if in 'context'.
She is in a van with both PJ and LP - points out Murat.
Murat made arguido on 15th
15/5 Three Tapas now remember seeing Murat hanging around on the evening of the 3rd. (I think ROB, MO and RM)

I think Amaral was continually advised to look at Murat by the British police/profilers since he fitted the profile. Murat's phone was tapped and several long calls with Martin Brunt recorded.

http://www.madeleinefoundation.org.uk/

tigger wrote:

Not Born Yesterday wrote:According to this item dated 27/1/2008 from the McCann files - http://www.mccannfiles.com/id90.html - it was the McCanns' private detectives who made the comment.

If I can find anything more precise I'll add it on. Apologies, I should have checked this earlier.

Lori Campbell phoned LP on the 6th with her (probably Kate-induced) suspicions of Murat.
JT told PJ on 13th that she could identify abductor as Murat if in 'context'.
She is in a van with both PJ and LP - points out Murat.
Murat made arguido on 15th
15/5 Three Tapas now remember seeing Murat hanging around on the evening of the 3rd. (I think ROB, MO and RM)

I think Amaral was continually advised to look at Murat by the British police/profilers since he fitted the profile. Murat's phone was tapped and several long calls with Martin Brunt recorded.

http://www.madeleinefoundation.org.uk/

Thats not how I interpretated the words of GA Tigger.

Madeleine McCann: L'Enquête Interdite - The Forbidden Investigation - Chapter 7

I park my car below the apartment blocks. Journalists are on the lookout around the apartment; fortunately, they don't see me. I walk the same route that the stranger must have taken. I arrive in front of a house with a neglected garden. Inside, there are two parked cars, whose registration numbers I note down. I communicate the numbers to the police in Portimão and wait there for the result of the check. After a few minutes, a green vehicle, driven by an individual wearing glasses, stops in front of the entrance to the house. The driver goes in quickly. His face is familiar to me but I don't know who he is. I notice a child's seat inside the car. The man comes back out a little later, supporting an elderly lady whom he accompanies towards the area of the swimming pools and the Tapas restaurant. They cross a park where a few buildings have been erected. Madeleine's parents took this route to take their children to the play centre, near the main reception area of the hotel complex. Since the start of the investigation , a team has been permanently on the premises and an apartment has been placed at their disposal. I am about to make enquiries of the police officer on duty when the individual comes back from his walk and greets him as he passes.

- You know that man?

- Yes, he presented himself to the GNR on Friday morning and offered his services as an interpreter. He is of English origin but speaks good Portuguese. He's called Robert Murat.

As the law demands, all foreign people interviewed by the police must have the benefit of an interpreter. In this investigation, the considerable number of interviews we had to conduct in record time forced us to call on the services of volunteers.

- And this guy, you checked him out? No criminal record or trouble with the law?

- No, no, it's all OK, but I didn't know he lived here. It's true that his house is on the route taken by the abductor.

- Stay here, carry on being friendly with him; I'm going to Portimão to see what we've got on him: we've got to find out more about this guy.

I immediately telephone the team to alert them.