Re: Dr Roberts - SEVENTEEN COME SUNDAY

**Panda** Tue 2 Oct - 10:27

marxman wrote:If I am reading Dr Robert's correctly then
what he is saying is that creche records
are normally relaxed due to the relaxed
nature and conduct of holiday-maker's
comings and goings. Therefore, when the
records show false entries/exits of kids
on creche logs then something indicates
pre-planning or being pre-emptive of future
questioning/investigation.
Am I right in this regard?

Morning marxman, not sure about that, I doubt that anything was pre-emptive and maybe when Kate was giving her version she forgot the creche records would not tally. I remember a while ago a discussion here about Gerry not signing out Madeleine one day, but if you look at the day you will see he signed on the line above Madeleine's name in error.

mossman Tue 2 Oct - 11:01

Is he suggesting that because it is nothing more than a playgroup, it would be relatively easy to falsify records, in so far as nobody was going to check you had written down the exact time you were collecting or dropping and change it accordingly to ensure it was accurate. Or if you called and said Kate asked me to collect Madeleine on her behalf and you wrote down Kate's name as being the person who collected the child, the staff would not bother questioning it ? Therefore the record keeping was lax because by its very nature the play centre was voluntary and casual and it would be easy for Healy and McCann to write down incorrect information on the records ?

They had already paid for morning attendance, it came as part of the holiday cost. The extra afternoon attendance incurred an additional cost. There are probably many families who go to the OC knowing they have an etitlement to put there children in the clubs for the morning as part of their package, but choose not to do so at all, or perhaps for just one morning during the entire holiday. MW have your money, but less children is less hassle for the nannies, so everyone is happy.

I think naming it a creche conjures up a false sense of security and and officialdom. People will tend to relate to the childcare facilities they use whilst at work in their home country, where attendance and every little detail is recorded with care. When I used to collect my little ones from their creche I was given a journal with what they did each day, what they ate, when they slept, all neatly and accurately recorded. Every single day, for each child.

The facility provided by MW was nothing more than a play centre, akin to the facility provided by Ikea for example in their stores. Drop the kids in if you want a hassle free shopping trip, don't drop them in if you do not want to. Ikea could not care less, neither could MW.

My experience of kids clubs on holiday is one of a lax atmosphere. You just go along, say here is "John", here is my number in case he falls off the horse, I will be back at 12. That is it. You can return at 12 and ask to take two or three children with you. Knowing their name and them being happy to go with you seems to be the only "official" requirement. "John" might never return to the club for the remainder of the holiday, noboby will come calling or care. That is not to say there is anything wrong the way the clubs are run, but it is the way they operate and you are aware of that before you use them.

Thats my take on it anyway - lax and unofficial, not because of it being unprofessionally run, just because of the nature of the service they were providing. Therefore easy for Healy and McCann to confuse the records.

**Panda** Tue 2 Oct - 11:31

For the Mccanns to falsify records it would have to be retrospective which would be hard to do. I think it was a Member of

Staff who filled in the times and the Parent just signed as confirmation.

Dr Martin was probably referring to the anomalies on Kate's Book, written for the most part from Diary extracts, she even admits having to contact other Tapas members asking for their version of events. If you notice mossman, this is why the Book deals more with Kate's emotions rather than her daughter Madeleiene .

mossman Tue 2 Oct - 12:00

Hi Panda, yes it is hard to do in retrospect, absolutely. However, if something happened early in the week, or indeed if they were simply trying to cover what they were doing, or where they were at a given point in time during the holiday, then the lax attitude to signing in and out and the times written down, will work in their favour. It would only take a day or two to figure out how the staff worked and what their attitude was when you drop and collect.
That was how I was looking at it. I do not think the records were done in retrospect, but filled out inaccurately in real time, on purpose.

The book makes my head spin. Kate did not write it, of that I am convinced. Somebody else put pen to paper with the aid of the diaries. The total lack of emotion shows us this, indeed the fact that Kate is so central to the whole book shows the person who wrote it had Kate in mind, never having known or met Madeleine. Of course, Kate signed off on it, but experience has shown us that her attention to detail is not all it should be.

Anyway, how many more talents does Kate Healy expect us to believe she has ? Doctor, runner, tennis player, private investigator, author. She makes a big drama about giving up work to stay home with her children. Yet she is investigating her eldest childs disappearance, writing books, charity running, sofa interviews in any country that will have her and being an ambassador for missing children. Give me a 9 to 5 job any day.

**Panda** Tue 2 Oct - 12:35

mossman wrote:Hi Panda, yes it is hard to do in retrospect, absolutely. However, if something happened early in the week, or indeed if they were simply trying to cover what they were doing, or where they were at a given point in time during the holiday, then the lax attitude to signing in and out and the times written down, will work in their favour. It would only take a day or two to figure out how the staff worked and what their attitude was when you drop and collect.
That was how I was looking at it. I do not think the records were done in retrospect, but filled out inaccurately in real time, on purpose.

The book makes my head spin. Kate did not write it, of that I am convinced. Somebody else put pen to paper with the aid of the diaries. The total lack of emotion shows us this, indeed the fact that Kate is so central to the whole book shows the person who wrote it had Kate in mind, never having known or met Madeleine. Of course, Kate signed off on it, but experience has shown us that her attention to detail is not all it should be.

Anyway, how many more talents does Kate Healy expect us to believe she has ? Doctor, runner, tennis player, private investigator, author. She makes a big drama about giving up work to stay home with her children. Yet she is investigating her eldest childs disappearance, writing books, charity running, sofa interviews in any country that will have her and being an ambassador for missing children. Give me a 9 to 5 job any day.

Apparently Kate was still on Maternity leave and only worked one and a half days a week , everything Kate does is to make her look good in the eyes of the public. A while ago I was browsing e-bay and saw the second book for sale by someone called Merlin. It was not reduced in price and mentioned Kate and Gerry as co-Authors.

I sent a message asking if there would be a discount and asked if Gerry's name quoted was as co-Author . A very nice Guy replied saying he owned a Book Store and could not reduce the price like amazon and Supermarkets. but was lead to believe that Gerry was co-Author. Sounds about right, Kate is not the most articulate is she, neither is Gerry come to think of it. Dr Roberts - SEVENTEEN COME SUNDAY - Page 2 294124

Dr Roberts - SEVENTEEN COME SUNDAY - Page 2 294124

marxman Tue 2 Oct - 15:35

Panda wrote:
marxman wrote:If I am reading Dr Robert's correctly then
what he is saying is that creche records
are normally relaxed due to the relaxed
nature and conduct of holiday-maker's
comings and goings. Therefore, when the
records show false entries/exits of kids
on creche logs then something indicates
pre-planning or being pre-emptive of future
questioning/investigation.
Am I right in this regard?

Morning marxman, not sure about that, I doubt that anything was pre-emptive and maybe when Kate was giving her version she forgot the creche records would not tally. I remember a while ago a discussion here about Gerry not signing out Madeleine one day, but if you look at the day you will see he signed on the line above Madeleine's name in error.

Hi Panda, I'm confused as ever. But if the
tapas gang had the presence of mind to
construct a timeline on the very night that
Madeleine went missing, could they not also
doctor, or get doctored the creche records
to show that Madeleine was present on
the times/dates, which also show evidence of
tampering?

**Panda** Tue 2 Oct - 15:45

marxman wrote:
Panda wrote:
marxman wrote:If I am reading Dr Robert's correctly then
what he is saying is that creche records
are normally relaxed due to the relaxed
nature and conduct of holiday-maker's
comings and goings. Therefore, when the
records show false entries/exits of kids
on creche logs then something indicates
pre-planning or being pre-emptive of future
questioning/investigation.
Am I right in this regard?

Morning marxman, not sure about that, I doubt that anything was pre-emptive and maybe when Kate was giving her version she forgot the creche records would not tally. I remember a while ago a discussion here about Gerry not signing out Madeleine one day, but if you look at the day you will see he signed on the line above Madeleine's name in error.

Hi Panda, I'm confused as ever. But if the
tapas gang had the presence of mind to
construct a timeline on the very night that
Madeleine went missing, could they not also
doctor, or get doctored the creche records
to show that Madeleine was present on
the times/dates, which also show evidence of
tampering?

I doubt it, as far as I remember, the book is on a desk and the parents should sign in front of a Member of Staff. To alter

the times, the McCanns would need a rubber and could be seen tampering by any of the Staff. To be honest I'm not quite sure what Dr Roberts is getting at, he is usually very explicit.

marxman Tue 2 Oct - 16:00

Panda wrote:
marxman wrote:
Panda wrote:
marxman wrote:If I am reading Dr Robert's correctly then
what he is saying is that creche records
are normally relaxed due to the relaxed
nature and conduct of holiday-maker's
comings and goings. Therefore, when the
records show false entries/exits of kids
on creche logs then something indicates
pre-planning or being pre-emptive of future
questioning/investigation.
Am I right in this regard?

Morning marxman, not sure about that, I doubt that anything was pre-emptive and maybe when Kate was giving her version she forgot the creche records would not tally. I remember a while ago a discussion here about Gerry not signing out Madeleine one day, but if you look at the day you will see he signed on the line above Madeleine's name in error.

Hi Panda, I'm confused as ever. But if the
tapas gang had the presence of mind to
construct a timeline on the very night that
Madeleine went missing, could they not also
doctor, or get doctored the creche records
to show that Madeleine was present on
the times/dates, which also show evidence of
tampering?

I doubt it, as far as I remember, the book is on a desk and the parents should sign in front of a Member of Staff. To alter

the times, the McCanns would need a rubber and could be seen tampering by any of the Staff. To be honest I'm not quite sure what Dr Roberts is getting at, he is usually very explicit.

Sorry to harp on, but this bit I think denotes
Dr Robert's thinking.....
"The same anecdote, embellished as it is with angst over the ice creams, tells us, inadvertently perhaps, of something else the McCanns did that afternoon - They deliberately falsified, personally or vicariously, entries in the Kids' club registers for the second period of the day."

**Panda** Tue 2 Oct - 16:13

I don't know what date Dr Roberts is referring to, it could be the date Gerry signed on the line above . We know Kate cannot be trusted to tell the truth so maybe she has got the Day wrong.

If Dr Roberts is referring to 3rd of May, the night Madeleine disappeared, Madeleine went on a boat trip with the Nannies and supposedly told Kate "it was the best day ever". Kate supposedly went running along the Beach that day and saw the other Tapas Group, Gerry was I think playing Tennis.

Wintabells Tue 2 Oct - 16:57

I don't understand what Dr Roberts is getting at either, when he comments about how the creche staff wouldn't notice or care if a child wasn't there - and only caring about the ones who were. Perhaps the suggestion is that the register was signed by a McParent without M actually being dropped off and/or signed without M being collected. The creche staff wouldn't notice if, for example, G or K was at the desk alongside other parent/s (like RO'B) and they made an entry underneath or above without actually dropping/collecting a kid. I can't imagine this happening, though - not without the other parent noticing. Plus, I seem to think the McEntries aren't directly above or below another Tapasnik's entry.

The creche records stink, though, that's for sure. I don't have them in front of me, but I remember seeing numerous oddities, like Cat Nanny signing Madeleine in/out, Kate using her married name in the a.m and her maiden name in the p.m. another occasion when Madeleine isn't signed out at all and, on ice-cream at the beach day, M being signed in for the afternoon session way before Kate claims she was returned for the afternoon.

I find it very odd that RO'B hot-footed it back to the creche on the Thurday p.m. before 'High Tea' to collect E*** so she could join the rest of the kids having ice creams at Paraiso on the beach. Why would he have done this?

I also find it odd that FP felt the need to have a solitary jog at 7pm on Thursday evening before dinner.

**Panda** Tue 2 Oct - 17:11

Wintabells wrote:I don't understand what Dr Roberts is getting at either, when he comments about how the creche staff wouldn't notice or care if a child wasn't there - and only caring about the ones who were. Perhaps the suggestion is that the register was signed by a McParent without M actually being dropped off and/or signed without M being collected. The creche staff wouldn't notice if, for example, G or K was at the desk alongside other parent/s (like RO'B) and they made an entry underneath or above without actually dropping/collecting a kid. I can't imagine this happening, though - not without the other parent noticing. Plus, I seem to think the McEntries aren't directly above or below another Tapasnik's entry.

The creche records stink, though, that's for sure. I don't have them in front of me, but I remember seeing numerous oddities, like Cat Nanny signing Madeleine in/out, Kate using her married name in the a.m and her maiden name in the p.m. another occasion when Madeleine isn't signed out at all and, on ice-cream at the beach day, M being signed in for the afternoon session way before Kate claims she was returned for the afternoon.

I find it very odd that RO'B hot-footed it back to the creche on the Thurday p.m. before 'High Tea' to collect E*** so she could join the rest of the kids having ice creams at Paraiso on the beach. Why would he have done this?

I also find it odd that FP felt the need to have a solitary jog at 7pm on Thursday evening before dinner.

Hi Wintabells, I don't understand them either, considering the McCanns were friends with the group they didn't spend much time with them except for Tennis and Dining.

Lillyofthevalley Tue 2 Oct - 20:39

mossman wrote:You do not cross the McCann machine. Amaral knows, and Healy and McCann have been relentless in their pursuit of him. Tony Bennett I think is just too close to home for them. They do not want him publishing handy leaflets with the facts which can be easily distrbuted throughout the UK. What would the neighbours say.

It begs the question though, what in the hell SY are doing.

When they have a bank load of money from the fund......what we've go to remember is that fund is running out.....this imo is when the Police wil attack when the McCanns dont have the security of that money sheild protecting them.

tigger Wed 3 Oct - 6:46

Wintabells wrote:I don't understand what Dr Roberts is getting at either, when he comments about how the creche staff wouldn't notice or care if a child wasn't there - and only caring about the ones who were. Perhaps the suggestion is that the register was signed by a McParent without M actually being dropped off and/or signed without M being collected. The creche staff wouldn't notice if, for example, G or K was at the desk alongside other parent/s (like RO'B) and they made an entry underneath or above without actually dropping/collecting a kid. I can't imagine this happening, though - not without the other parent noticing. Plus, I seem to think the McEntries aren't directly above or below another Tapasnik's entry.

The creche records stink, though, that's for sure. I don't have them in front of me, but I remember seeing numerous oddities, like Cat Nanny signing Madeleine in/out, Kate using her married name in the a.m and her maiden name in the p.m. another occasion when Madeleine isn't signed out at all and, on ice-cream at the beach day, M being signed in for the afternoon session way before Kate claims she was returned for the afternoon.

I find it very odd that RO'B hot-footed it back to the creche on the Thurday p.m. before 'High Tea' to collect E*** so she could join the rest of the kids having ice creams at Paraiso on the beach. Why would he have done this?

I also find it odd that FP felt the need to have a solitary jog at 7pm on Thursday evening before dinner.

Especially as FP and Healy are such buddies.
Re the creche records, I would doubt very much that any of the nannies checked them at all. You're sitting there with a bunch of children, another child is dropped off or you see a parent at the end of the room near the creche sheets, you're not going to walk over and check what they're doing or if they've signed correctly. Unless something happened, the creche sheets would barely get a glance.
For that reason alone, I think a nanny would be happy for some parents to adjust the entries after the event - to help her and to clarify the lists for the police.

One thing the creche sheets definitely do not prove imo, is that a given child was at the creche at a given time. All it proves, its that someone signed the child in and out and exactly when that was done can also not be proved.

Wintabells Wed 3 Oct - 9:34

Aside from amending an existing entry or adding a new entry to the end of a sheet, I can't see how a parent could have altered the register.

But I can see how one could accompany another parent and their child/ren at drop off/pick up time and register a child as being delivered/dropped off without actually doing so. I don't have time to locate and paste the records for 2nd and 3rd May at this moment, but having looked at them quickly again on the net, there's evidence of M being signed in or out at more or less the same time as E*** O'B, suggesting that the parents of each child went to the creche together at those times or were at the desk at the same time.

I don't think the creche staff would cross reference the names in the register with the names of the children physically present unless it was discovered that a child was missing and no child went missing from the creche during the McC's holiday period. I would have thought the only time there'd have been a reason to note names and count heads would be when the staff took the kids out of the creche to go to the beach or to play on the tennis courts or whatever so that they could confirm they'd got all the kids back in the creche.

If something had happened to M prior to Thursday that was subsequently covered-up, they have needed to either explain M's absence from the creche or signed her in and out without her actually being there.

Has anyone got easy access to the records (Lobsters) for 2nd and 3rd May and the energy to paste them here? it would be interesting to look at them both again.

**Panda** Wed 3 Oct - 9:57

I'm not quite sure how important these creche records seem to be. If Dr Roberts is suggesting Madeleine could have gone missing earlier than reported I'm sure the Kids club Staff would dispute that . Amaral says Madeleine was last reported seen at 5.30pm on 23rd May,

Wintabells Wed 3 Oct - 15:48

Panda wrote:I'm not quite sure how important these creche records seem to be. If Dr Roberts is suggesting Madeleine could have gone missing earlier than reported I'm sure the Kids club Staff would dispute that . Amaral says Madeleine was last reported seen at 5.30pm on 23rd May,

I know what you mean, Panda, but the ice-cream on the beach return time discrepancy is very strange as is K's claim that she picked M up from the creche on Thursday, when apparently Gerry did. I've never been satisfied by that 5.30pm sighting on 3rd May especially having seen that photo of E*** O'B in Jane T's arms where she might as well be MBMcC. and Kate claims she carried M back to 5a that day....my point being, who was K carrying and why bother to mention and explain why she was carrying the child anyway?

**Panda** Wed 3 Oct - 19:07

Wintabells wrote:
Panda wrote:I'm not quite sure how important these creche records seem to be. If Dr Roberts is suggesting Madeleine could have gone missing earlier than reported I'm sure the Kids club Staff would dispute that . Amaral says Madeleine was last reported seen at 5.30pm on 23rd May,

I know what you mean, Panda, but the ice-cream on the beach return time discrepancy is very strange as is K's claim that she picked M up from the creche on Thursday, when apparently Gerry did. I've never been satisfied by that 5.30pm sighting on 3rd May especially having seen that photo of E*** O'B in Jane T's arms where she might as well be MBMcC. and Kate claims she carried M back to 5a that day....my point being, who was K carrying and why bother to mention and explain why she was carrying the child anyway?

Hi Wintabells, I would imagine Amaral verified the 5.30pm before accepting it. The 5.30 pm would have included tea for the children. There is no evidence that Kate made the children tea, the only reference she makes to feeding them is after bathing them she gave them Milk and biscuits. Without reading again Dr. Roberts report, I think this is one theory which doesn't add up. Knowing Kate, maybe she got the days wrong . Dr Roberts - SEVENTEEN COME SUNDAY - Page 2 25346

Dr Roberts - SEVENTEEN COME SUNDAY - Page 2 25346

jinvta Wed 3 Oct - 19:48

I think that Dr Roberts makes a very good case for the creche records being falsified. I know that this topic has been discussed on this forum before, probably brought up by HiDeHo and her impeccable timelines. If it was just a mistake that Kate got the days mixed up, then there should be another day (Monday or Wednesday perhaps?) that all three McCann children were checked into the creche for the last 1.5 hours only. Is there any day that Madeline was checked into the creche at 3:30 pm?

matthew Wed 3 Oct - 21:10

"Gerry and I would soon be painstakingly trying to extract from our brains every tiny incident, no matter how small, that might have been significant. Armed with notebook, pen and dated photographs, I would be challenging myself to piece together as comprehensive an outline of the sequence of events as I could."

**Panda** Thu 4 Oct - 13:19

matthew wrote:"Gerry and I would soon be painstakingly trying to extract from our brains every tiny incident, no matter how small, that might have been significant. Armed with notebook, pen and dated photographs, I would be challenging myself to piece together as comprehensive an outline of the sequence of events as I could."

Yes matthew, like Kate was so certain the door blew open , there was a draught and the Window was open and the curtains blowing.Also the shutter was jemmied.

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