Ukraine violence escalates

NOT SURE IF ALREADY MENTIONED,RUSSIAN TROOPS HAVE FIRED SHOTS OVER THE HEADS OF UKRAINIAN TROOPS.

Hi Panda

Your timeline is accurate, completely so. A very worrying twist to the whole thing is this apparent test firing of a missile by Russia, into Kazakhstan. Designed I have no doubt to intimidate, and show the west just how powerless we are. That is a significant part of the problem, we are powerless, and Putin knows it. This package of aid Kerry announced of a loan of £1 billion, will not scratch the surface of Ukraine's needs.

The trouble though is as you are very aware more complicated in that in the Crimea the majority are Russian and this gives Putin an excuse albeit a spurious one to claim he is protecting Russian nationals. The same goes of course in the east of Ukraine, where many Russian nationals live as well. Then Putin is claiming that the present government is illegitimate.

On top of it all in the Crimea we have Muslim agitators from Chechnya with their agenda for establishing the beginning of their world order. The whole thing is a mess, and so called militias (rentathugs) on whatever side don't help either.

It comes down to the empty threats being made by the west. Those Ukrainians attempting to get back to the air base claimed, quite wrongly that America was with them. They may be in spirit but that just might tip the balance, then when Putin responds massively, this US, and western help will vanish.

Those Russians with money are saying they don't have to spend it in London so economic sanctions might rebound on us, The final sanction being to turn off the gas. As Churchill said jaw jaw is better than war war. Empty threats, with no substance, regardless of how well intentioned are worse than useless. Having said all that, I am also against the Ukraine joining the EU as other countries such as Greece and Eire, an a few others did for what they can get. We are on the bones of our own b*******s, we cannot go on subsidising the world ad infinitum

RUSSIAN STOCK MARKET HAS BEEN HIT BY THE PROBLEM,SHARES HAVE TUMBLED.

Good morning malena

I'm not sure I can agree that it was Thatcher who had a vendetta, Scargill was not blameless in this. His agenda was every bit as political as hers. at the least it was six and two threes.

Pits do become exhausted, and the pit nicknamed the Alamo which started all this was in fact worked out. After the strike Scargill changed tack and claimed quite rightly that Britain had some of the greatest reserves of deep mine coal in the world. What he omitted to tell us, and perhaps he didn't know himself, was that this coal is so contaminated with sulphur as to be useless for commercial purposes.

Throughout the world they are gradually closing down coal and even oil fired power stations. Nuclear fired stations do not produce the same emissions of course, their toxicity lies in the waste being deadly for thousands of years. whatever damage Thatcher did to our industry Scargill was a willing accomplice.

No I'm not a tory supporter. I used to be up to 1997, now I don't trust any of them.

Well it's all happening , more Russian troops despatched to Crimea, France and Spain letting it be known they do not approve of Russian action.

Russian Speaking people in Crimea turning against non Russian speakers , forcing them to to move away from a Building they were protecting.

Russian Foreign Minister to speak in Ukraine, they think the Ukrainians caused this by ousting their President, which is illegal.

This is getting very nasty, water supplies to the Ukrainians guarding a gate was supplied by non Russians in Crimea denied delivery by the Russian troops.

http://news.sky.com/story/1221142/ukraine-police-clearing-pro-russia-protesters


The Russians have also blockaded with a Warship, part of the harbour , preventing two Ukraine war ships from leaving .

While World leaders are deciding what to do, a Reporter said the situation is tense , Russian Speakers in Crimea and Ukraine against non Russian speakers are antthing but calm. Food to the Rumanians is running low , he thinks it's like a tinder box and anything could spark a riot.

katertaif wrote:Good morning malena

I'm not sure I can agree that it was Thatcher who had a vendetta, Scargill was not blameless in this. His agenda was every bit as political as hers. at the least it was six and two threes.

Pits do become exhausted, and the pit nicknamed the Alamo which started all this was in fact worked out. After the strike Scargill changed tack and claimed quite rightly that Britain had some of the greatest reserves of deep mine coal in the world. What he omitted to tell us, and perhaps he didn't know himself, was that this coal is so contaminated with sulphur as to be useless for commercial purposes.

Throughout the world they are gradually closing down coal and even oil fired power stations. Nuclear fired stations do not produce the same emissions of course, their toxicity lies in the waste being deadly for thousands of years.  whatever damage Thatcher did to our industry Scargill was a willing accomplice.

No  I'm not a tory supporter. I used to be up to 1997, now I don't trust any of them.

Good afternoon katertaif,

I agree, Scargill was every bit as bad as Thatcher, but Thatcher lied that her agenda was not to bring about mass pit closures. He knew this to be a lie and was shown to be right by the recently released disclosures through the FOI act.

As I've said before I was a staunch Labour supporter when Labour represented the working man, in fact right up to Tony Blair and Gordon Brown's administrations and their creation of 'New Labour', whose policies are as I see, no different to those of the Tories. They continued with the wind down of the NHS and its preparation for eventual privatisation instead of reversing the decisions taken by the Tories and continuing to allow the unchecked immigration of unskilled migrants from eastern Europe and the Asian Sub Continent.

I'll be casting my vote for UKIP who do offer fresh ideas rather than rehashed failures of previous policies.

However, we in the UK aren't able to dictate to or threaten the Russians to change their stance in any way. They have nore troops in the Crimea than all our armed services combined.... and we have no means of transporting or protecting ground troops to such a destination.

Economically the Russians need to trade as do we, but they control the flow of Gas to the whole of Europe which does give them a big edge .

We in the West cannot rely on Obama, he's likely to be to busy trying to win back his popularity with the voters in the US. His appeal has taken quite a tumble, apparently even amongst his staunchest supporters.

Good afternoon Malena

Once more, I don't altogether agree that Thatcher was looking for mass pit closures. If she lied, that seems to be the modern political stance anyway, at least in Britain. how do we know a politician is lying? Easy their mouths are moving.

I think Maggie was hell bent on shall we say reining the unions in, and she chose to make her Alamo over the Alamo. (Sorry, couldn't resist)

As you say starting a bare 5 decades ago, the three main parties have undermined themselves, none more so than labour. The Liberals have proved why they were in the political wilderness for a century and the Conservatives have (I believe) betrayed everyone. They have not changed from the brown envelopes at all. Like you . I will be voting UKIP. I can only hope it isn't a wasted vote, and that it will shake up the three large parties, and make them act in our interests again, as against their own.

back to the Ukraine I agree totally the Russians have more men under arms than all of us put together, and even if that were not so, our supply lines would make any meaningful action impossible. Putin knows that, which is precisely why all our threats mean nothing. All they will do is put his back up. Obama is in his last term, so getting his popularity back may be nice but not an essential. I just don't trust him. and he's made no secret of his opinion of us. If the balloon did go up (I don't believe it will, except for possible localised action) The US would keep out, unless their own interests were threatened. There has always been a strong isolationist element, and I think their voices would make the difference.

katertaif wrote:Good afternoon Malena

Once more, I don't altogether agree that Thatcher was looking for mass pit closures. If she lied, that seems to be the modern political stance anyway, at least in Britain. how do we know a politician is lying? Easy their mouths are moving.

I think Maggie was hell bent on shall we say reining the unions in, and she chose to make her Alamo over the Alamo. (Sorry, couldn't resist)

As you say starting a bare 5 decades ago, the three main parties have undermined themselves, none more so than labour. The Liberals have proved why they were in the political wilderness for a century and the Conservatives have (I believe) betrayed everyone. They have not changed from the brown envelopes at all. Like you . I will be voting UKIP. I can only hope it isn't a wasted vote, and that it will shake up the three large parties, and make them act in our interests again, as against their own.

back to the Ukraine I agree totally the Russians have more men under arms than all of us put together, and even if that were not so, our supply lines would make any meaningful action impossible. Putin knows that, which is precisely why all our threats mean nothing. All they will do is put his back up. Obama is in his last term, so getting his popularity back may be nice but not an essential. I just don't trust him. and he's made no secret of his opinion of us. If the balloon did go up (I don't believe it will, except for possible localised action) The US would keep out, unless their own interests were threatened. There has always been a strong isolationist element, and I think their voices would make the difference.

I do like your 'Alamo' reference, it's a  bit of a shame Davy Crockett was conspicuous by his absence here in the UK... ah well.

The coming Farage/Clegg, head to head which I believe is on BBC tv next week will expose Clegg's policies for what they really are and also give the electorate a chance to hear Farage air his immigration and EU polices first hand, without our 'unbiased' press putting their own slant on his thoughts.

I fully agree with your views on Obama, his policies at home are I believe costing the Democrats huge numbers of potential votes in the forthcoming election. Our 'special relationship' with the States was always with the Republican Party so we can expect no favours. Once they pull out of Afghanistan they may well revert back to their isolationist stance whichever party wins now that the threat of Communism has seemingly receded in Europe.

Hi katertaif, would Putin risk a civil war though between the Russian speaking people in Crimea and Ukraine? Obama has warned Putin that his G8 Membership is at risk. He has blocked two Ukrainian ships in the Crimean harbour, increased soldiers in the area,while Putin continues to deny an increase in troops. Newsflash says the UN Representative has been seized by armed men in Crimea.

The EU would not want trade sanctions because they get gas from Russia, Britain and Germany are reluctant to get involved in sanctions.

sorry to see some of you turning to ukip.   

Panda wrote:Hi katertaif, would Putin risk a civil war though between the Russian speaking people in Crimea and Ukraine?  Obama has warned Putin that his G8 Membership is at risk. He has blocked two Ukrainian ships in the Crimean harbour, increased soldiers in the area,while Putin continues to deny an increase in troops. Newsflash says the UN Representative has been seized by armed men in Crimea.

The EU would not want trade sanctions because they get  gas from Russia, Britain and Germany are reluctant to get involved in sanctions.

yes he probably would. after all, that would serve his purpose very nicely. putin could probably care less about anything obama says. after all, when asked about sanctions during his press conference yesterday his responded by saying that works both ways.

  

malena stool wrote:

katertaif wrote:Good afternoon Malena

Once more, I don't altogether agree that Thatcher was looking for mass pit closures. If she lied, that seems to be the modern political stance anyway, at least in Britain. how do we know a politician is lying? Easy their mouths are moving.

I think Maggie was hell bent on shall we say reining the unions in, and she chose to make her Alamo over the Alamo. (Sorry, couldn't resist)

As you say starting a bare 5 decades ago, the three main parties have undermined themselves, none more so than labour. The Liberals have proved why they were in the political wilderness for a century and the Conservatives have (I believe) betrayed everyone. They have not changed from the brown envelopes at all. Like you . I will be voting UKIP. I can only hope it isn't a wasted vote, and that it will shake up the three large parties, and make them act in our interests again, as against their own.

back to the Ukraine I agree totally the Russians have more men under arms than all of us put together, and even if that were not so, our supply lines would make any meaningful action impossible. Putin knows that, which is precisely why all our threats mean nothing. All they will do is put his back up. Obama is in his last term, so getting his popularity back may be nice but not an essential. I just don't trust him. and he's made no secret of his opinion of us. If the balloon did go up (I don't believe it will, except for possible localised action) The US would keep out, unless their own interests were threatened. There has always been a strong isolationist element, and I think their voices would make the difference.

I do like your 'Alamo' reference, it's a  bit of a shame Davy Crockett was conspicuous by his absence here in the UK... ah well.

The coming Farage/Clegg, head to head which I believe is on BBC tv next week will expose Clegg's policies for what they really are and also give the electorate a chance to hear Farage air his immigration and EU polices first hand, without our 'unbiased' press putting their own slant on his thoughts.

I fully agree with your views on Obama, his policies at home are I believe costing the Democrats huge numbers of potential votes in the forthcoming election. Our 'special relationship' with the States was always with the Republican Party so we can expect no favours. Once they pull out of Afghanistan they may well revert back to their isolationist stance whichever party wins now that the threat of Communism has seemingly receded in Europe.

I cannot believe that there is going to be a head to head between Farage and Clegg.  In fact it is the stuff of a comic show.    Problem is Clegg did this in the last election and I thought that he made an utter fool of himself.  He said one thing one night and the opposite the next!!!   The Nation however  fell for it and thought he was Mr nice guy and also very sensible in his views!!!!!! The opinion polls said he was tops in the discussions!!!!!  It is all very worrying that the population saw Clegg in this light.

I will be voting UKIP in the European elections but only for that. I do not know what their other policies are, if they have any, as far as voting for them to form a government for this country.

Is this a Thatcher thread now?? Why not create a new thread if you want to discuss in depth , it's messing up the minute by minute reporting on the Ukraine  

Panda wrote:
Is this a Thatcher thread now?? Why not create a new thread if you want to discuss in depth , it's messing up the minute by minute reporting on the Ukraine  

oh i don't know. it's kinda related insofar as demonstrates how far putin has us over the barrel, so to speak.  

 

Marky wrote:

Panda wrote:
Is this a Thatcher thread now?? Why not create a new thread if you want to discuss in depth , it's messing up the minute by minute reporting on the Ukraine  

oh i don't know.  it's kinda related insofar as demonstrates how far putin has us over the barrel, so to speak.  

 

B****hit !!! If you bothered to look I have been reporting on events as they happen , bit hard for Members to play catchup when they have to wade through posts not related to the topic.  


Marky, my very first job when i left school was as a Junior in a Building Materials Company and I was taught how to file , there is more to it than you think but that is what makes information findable.Anyway, you all carry on.

Panda wrote:

Marky wrote:

Panda wrote:
Is this a Thatcher thread now?? Why not create a new thread if you want to discuss in depth , it's messing up the minute by minute reporting on the Ukraine  

oh i don't know.  it's kinda related insofar as demonstrates how far putin has us over the barrel, so to speak.  

 

B****hit !!! If you bothered to look I have been reporting on events as they happen , bit hard for Members to play catchup when they have to wade through posts not related to the topic.  


Marky, my very first job when i left school was as a Junior in a Building Materials Company and I was taught how to file , there is more to it than you think but that is what makes information findable.Anyway, you all carry on.

thank you.   

Hello Panda. I for one never mentioned Margaret Thatcher but all threads veer a little whatever the subject, it is the human way. I am sure that it does not distract from your postings of what is happening in the Ukraine. We are all fully aware of it.   

As I brought Thatcher into the topic I think I'll justify what I posted and why I posted it. See my post yesterday at 20.49.

We as a nation are reliant on Russia (and others) for a commodity that we were once self sufficient in. It is down to Thatcher we are in this position. All actions have reactions, had she have acted differently towards the miners and had Scargill been less of a raging millitant we may not be in the position of beholding to the likes of Putin.

well if this is true...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2573923/Was-massacre-started-Ukraine-revolution-ordered-new-leaders-Leaked-tape-says-Maidan-snipers-NOT-control-ousted-president-opposition-drove-power.html

  

Good morning Panda

I don't believe this has turned into a Thatcher thread in any way I do uphold Malena's right to post a reasonable opinion, whether I agree with it or not is irrelevant. I may disagree with what you say but I will fight to the death for your right to say it.

The two are related in that the possibility exists that Putin may decide to turn the gas off. I agree it is a very very unlikely possibility, but it is a card he holds. Malena was saying that we would be less dependant on Russian gas now if Maggie had not taken the course of action she did. I don't think that is going too far from the subject, it is closely related to it.

katertaif wrote:Good morning Panda

I don't believe this has turned into a Thatcher thread in any way I do uphold Malena's right to post a reasonable opinion, whether I agree with it or not is irrelevant. I may disagree with what you say but I will fight to the death for your right to say it.

The two are related in that the possibility exists that Putin may decide to turn the gas off. I agree it is a very very unlikely possibility, but it is a card he holds. Malena was saying that we would be less dependant on Russian gas now if Maggie had not taken the course of action she did. I don't think that is going too far from the subject, it is closely related to it.

said much the same thing and got panderised. good luck.   

hmmm, looks like democracy has reared its head in crimea.   

Good Afternoon Marky

I don't know about democracy in the Crimea, we could do with a little democracy ourselves. our political masters keep saying this is a democratic country when even a brief glance at the cabinet shows that it is closer to the Russian oligarchy.

Personally I believe that the situation in the Ukraine is at least partly the fault of EU bungling. In 2008 Europe as a whole with Angela Merkel presiding, opposed The Ukraine from joining NATO. If they were now members of NATO would Putin be even thinking of deploying troops? Then, the same EU offers EU membership, a bit two faced.

Last December several foreign ministers while not actively protesting themselves mixed with Ukrainian demonstrators, giving them hope that if the balloon went up, Europe would support them, a forlorn hope as it turns out. The same with Obama. One of the Ukrainians at the air base the other day shouted that the USA was with them. In spirit perhaps, but not with anything substantial

However this turns out: and we can only hope for the best, Europe and it's leaders including ours have been more than a little two faced, and have wrongly encouraged the Ukrainian people with false hope