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McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  jd16 on Sun 15 Jul - 0:45

From GNR statement: Jose Maria Batista Roque

"He also refers to a situation when he was searching outside, near the pool, that someone from the OC whom he cannot identify, passed him a mobile phone, as a British Consulate employee who spoke in Portuguese, wanted to talk to the authorities. Upon speaking to him, he told him that the investigation and subsequent actions were under the responsibility of the PJ."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_ROQUE.htm

How quick was this for the British Consulate to be phoning!

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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  jd16 on Sun 15 Jul - 0:50

duncanmac wrote:
The PJ was told to investigate an abduction, not a missing child case.
Claudia, can you please expand on this statement.Who advised the PJ to do this, they are professional police officers not a coffee shop as you have told me in the past.

From GNR statement: Antonio Henrique de Conceicao Duarte

"Upon questioning, he states that he arrived at the site of the disappearance of the young girl on 3rd May of this year, about 25 to 30 minutes after the patrol. Upon arriving at the site he was told that this was a case of abduction, this information being transmitted, he thinks, by the girl's father. He was also informed by Silvia (head of maintenance at the resort) that the parents and friends said it was an abduction, their intention being to inform the media, and that they were in fact making phone calls to this effect."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_DUARTE.htm




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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  Claudia79 on Sun 15 Jul - 2:09

Panda wrote:
Claudia79 wrote:
Panda wrote:
I think it was Tony Blair who phoned John Buck , the British Ambassador and asked him to go to PDL to offer assistance. He arrived the following day
and I think stayed a couple of days. He then e-mailed the Foreign Office suggesting they not get too involved because there were discrepancies in the
Tapas Statements... a few months later he left Portugal. I don't think he would have tried to influence the Portugese Police in any way.

If you think that making calls to the head of a Police Force and telling him what crime his Police Officers have to investigate isn't influencing, then no. There was no influence at all.

Are you positive that happened Claudia? Wasn't it more a connivance between Gordon Brown and Socrates? Buck had advised his foreign Office not to get too involved so I cannot imagine him dictating to the Portugese Police.

Yes, I'm positive it happened. In a matter of hours.

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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  Panda on Sun 15 Jul - 7:01



It would appear that according to Duarte's statement it was Gerry McCann who said it was an abduction . I think the difference between Abduction and Kidnap would not have been understood by many Portugese. A long time ago I remarked on the fact this case had only ever been known as an
Abduction and quoted from my Oxford Dictionary the meaning of "Abduction" and Kidnap". Our F Soares thanked me at the time saying it was good to know the difference .

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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  jd16 on Sun 15 Jul - 12:50

Heart specialist Gerry McCann rang his sister Trish in Scotland after Maddy vanished from her cot placed between two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie. Trish revealed yesterday: "He was breaking his heart, saying 'Madeleine's been abducted, she's been abducted'."

----

Jon Corner, a close friend of Mrs McCann and godparent of the twins, said Kate telephoned him in the middle of the night distraught.He told how tearful Kate sobbed down the phone early yesterday: "Someone has taken my little girl."He continued: "She was in an absolutely hysterical state - very, very distressed. She blurted out Madeleine had been abducted.


The plan was abduction from the start. Abduction = no body



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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  Not Born Yesterday on Sun 15 Jul - 13:00

Absoloutely JD16. It really is hard to imagine how anyone finding a child gone in circumstances like this would be screaming abduction without the slightest shred of evidence.

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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  jd16 on Sun 15 Jul - 13:06

Not Born Yesterday wrote:Absoloutely JD16. It really is hard to imagine how anyone finding a child gone in circumstances like this would be screaming abduction without the slightest shred of evidence.

And 5 years later there still is not one shred of evidence of an abduction!

The plan was to get the PJ totally focused on abduction (and discrediting them in the process for not doing enough on this, so to keep them focused on abduction)....thus taking away all attention from the truth

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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  Panda on Sun 15 Jul - 13:13



This was why they never promoted the £2 million reward, but thhe mystery remains, if Madeleine did die in 5a, how did they dispose of her body.

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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  cherry1 on Sun 15 Jul - 13:14

There has most definitely been a concerted effort to discredit the PJ.

The fact that some 'coppers' and 'former coppers' (and I use the terms loosely) have come out
and slagged off the PJ in the way they have done says a lot and tells us a lot about those who have done so.

The Police are a family, and there is also a wider family, genuine decent honest coppers are appalled
at the way some of these 'coppers' have come out of the woodwork to slag off the PJ, that should never have happened, is totally unprofessional and made those who have done it look rather suspect. Questions are also being asked about the motives and reasons for attacking another police force in the way they have done (which was also aided by some British Police) so vocally especially as an ongoing investigation.

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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  jd16 on Sun 15 Jul - 13:24

Panda wrote:

This was why they never promoted the £2 million reward, but thhe mystery remains, if Madeleine did die in 5a, how did they dispose of her body.

This is open to debate Panda and until more facts come to light we cannot be absolutely sure. I personally think they disposed of her body where it would never ever be found. One option would be out at sea, could easily get on a boat with one of their friends e.g. for example, john geraghty was closely helping them and he was a wealthy millionaire who could have easily had a boat or knew of people who did. wealthy & boats go hand in hand especially in that part of the world. Or they cremated her in the church


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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  Panda on Sun 15 Jul - 13:25

cherry1 wrote:There has most definitely been a concerted effort to discredit the PJ.

The fact that some 'coppers' and 'former coppers' (and I use the terms loosely) have come out
and slagged off the PJ in the way they have done says a lot and tells us a lot about those who have done so.

The Police are a family, and there is also a wider family, genuine decent honest coppers are appalled
at the way some of these 'coppers' have come out of the woodwork to slag off the PJ, that should never have happened, is totally unprofessional and made those who have done it look rather suspect. Questions are also being asked about the motives and reasons for attacking another police force in the way they have done (which was also aided by some British Police) so vocally especially as an ongoing investigation.

The Press too , the famous "sardine munchers" by Tony Parsons comes to mind. I'm surprised the Portugese allowed SY to investigate what was the McCann claim that the PJ had shelved the Files too early.......theyv'e got a nerve.!!!!

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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  Panda on Sun 15 Jul - 13:30

jd16 wrote:
Panda wrote:

This was why they never promoted the £2 million reward, but thhe mystery remains, if Madeleine did die in 5a, how did they dispose of her body.

This is open to debate Panda and until more facts come to light we cannot be absolutely sure. I personally think they disposed of her body where it would never ever be found. One option would be out at sea, could easily get on a boat with one of their friends e.g. for example, john geraghty was closely helping them and he was a wealthy millionaire who could have easily had a boat or knew of people who did. wealthy & boats go hand in hand especially in that part of the world. Or they cremated her in the church


I was sitting next to a Lady on a Coach about 3 yrs ago travelling to Gatwick and would you believe it, she lived in Faro!!!! A Friend of hers was also
a Friend of Mrs Fenn and apparently it wasn't the only night Madeleine was crying. This Lady said the Portugese think Madeleine's body was thrown from cliffs, probably weighted down.

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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  Bobsy on Sun 15 Jul - 13:48

Panda wrote:
jd16 wrote:
Panda wrote:

This was why they never promoted the £2 million reward, but thhe mystery remains, if Madeleine did die in 5a, how did they dispose of her body.

This is open to debate Panda and until more facts come to light we cannot be absolutely sure. I personally think they disposed of her body where it would never ever be found. One option would be out at sea, could easily get on a boat with one of their friends e.g. for example, john geraghty was closely helping them and he was a wealthy millionaire who could have easily had a boat or knew of people who did. wealthy & boats go hand in hand especially in that part of the world. Or they cremated her in the church


I was sitting next to a Lady on a Coach about 3 yrs ago travelling to Gatwick and would you believe it, she lived in Faro!!!! A Friend of hers was also
a Friend of Mrs Fenn and apparently it wasn't the only night Madeleine was crying. This Lady said the Portugese think Madeleine's body was thrown from cliffs, probably weighted down.

The thing about throwing from cliffs is that unless it is a sheer drop into the sea then any obstruction on the drop could cause the body to be lodged. So for me that is too great a risk of detection. However taken out to sea and dropped in a weighted bag could work but they would need a boat for that and knowledge of sea depths and currents.

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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  widowan on Sun 15 Jul - 13:53

Panda wrote:

It would appear that according to Duarte's statement it was Gerry McCann who said it was an abduction . I think the difference between Abduction and Kidnap would not have been understood by many Portugese. A long time ago I remarked on the fact this case had only ever been known as an
Abduction and quoted from my Oxford Dictionary the meaning of "Abduction" and Kidnap". Our F Soares thanked me at the time saying it was good to know the difference .

I thought they were the same thing. So abduction is when they are taken, but there's no ransom - the person isn't offering to return them? because in the US, we would use kidnap for what happened to Madeleine (if she was taken) regardless if there were ransom or if the term was being used correctly. It is the parents nightmare and a crime that is sure to engender maximum chaos, noise and activity.

Having the parents, the hotel or the Ambassador get on the phone and yelp that there's been an abduction is not the same as telling the cops what crime they "have to " investigate. Neither Gerry nor the Ambassador was in a position to dictate that to Portuguese police (although they surely nmight try to, with Gerry calling the media to tell them that, abduction became the story). The head of the PJ would be the one telling the force what to investigate, and the pressure would have come from someone in the British government to him or even to his higher up if they were going to try and dictate.

But as Claudia says the police did not obey this - but what a stupid thing, to have to invstigate with one arm tied behind your back.

I think initially everyone thought it was an abduction (or kidnapping whichever you would call it, but not a parent involved crime) just because there were so many witnesses; you would not expect 9 people to conspire to cover a crime and the friends alibi'd the couple AND claimed to have seem someone scurry off with madeleine, so that's the evidence you have initially. Eye witness testimony of people whom you'd expect to tell the truth.

it's when it comes to ruling the parents out, comparing their statements and so on that the PJ seem not to have done that early enough and from what I recall of Amaral's book that was for two reasons, they were influenced at the top not to make the parents suspects but also they didn't want to tip the parents off that they were investigating them, lest they clam up, leave, or destroy evidence. It's very difficult to compare statements that have been translated and are not in the person's own words, as well. McCanns weren't going anywhere so they probably thought they had time to amass some other evidence before they questioned them more closely. Theres the old adage give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves...

It would have been interesting to do a reconstruction the following day, or at least before the T 7 ran away, but early on I would imagine between the language difficulties and the media involvment any discrepancies would be put down to the general chaos. It's so odd because normally people aren't all leaving the crime scene en mass - they had this same issue trying to investigate the guy who disappeared off the cruise ship. All the witnesses ended their holiday, and left.

It's easy to later wish they had done this or that (which I do, if only) but at the time you have 9 people telling the same story and an eye witness account that completely clears the parents, a totally destroyed crime scene, a language barrier and half the cast gone missing before the curtain call, it would be tough to get the investigation to a proper state even without media and government interference. And Clarence and the boys finding sightings of Madeleine to highlight in the press.

I think John Buck could both have conveyed the strong notion that this was an abduction to the PJ - AND told his superiors he wasn't sure about McCanns. Toeing the company line. Like Amaral perhaps he had his suspicions but was also under orders and in the police and government work that is a top down organization and you do what you are told, or risk getting drummed out.




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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  widowan on Sun 15 Jul - 13:59

Panda wrote:
jd16 wrote:
Panda wrote:

This was why they never promoted the £2 million reward, but thhe mystery remains, if Madeleine did die in 5a, how did they dispose of her body.

This is open to debate Panda and until more facts come to light we cannot be absolutely sure. I personally think they disposed of her body where it would never ever be found. One option would be out at sea, could easily get on a boat with one of their friends e.g. for example, john geraghty was closely helping them and he was a wealthy millionaire who could have easily had a boat or knew of people who did. wealthy & boats go hand in hand especially in that part of the world. Or they cremated her in the church


I was sitting next to a Lady on a Coach about 3 yrs ago travelling to Gatwick and would you believe it, she lived in Faro!!!! A Friend of hers was also
a Friend of Mrs Fenn and apparently it wasn't the only night Madeleine was crying. This Lady said the Portugese think Madeleine's body was thrown from cliffs, probably weighted down.

It might not even be the only night they'd complained of it, either.

It's very odd to me that a father hearing that his daughter has kept the neighbors awake with her crying would stubbornly refuse to make alternative arrangements for her care even after being warned by staff of his unsafe practice, but would instead sedate the children. There, now you'll be still, and it's still all under my control and no one is telling me how best to raise my children.

Actually sedating the children so you can party is so common now there's a term for it here, Zanny the Nanny. Some do it with Benadryll and some with prescription medicine. You'd think the next day someone would notice how the child appears - frail, puny, emotional - if over sedated or with a stronger drug. With hollows under their eyes from not sleeping. Something.

I can't see Kate throwing Madeleine's body off the cliffs or Gerry either, because it seems out of character for them (interesting that the Portuguese don't think so!)

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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  Panda on Sun 15 Jul - 14:05

Bobsy wrote:
Panda wrote:
jd16 wrote:
Panda wrote:

This was why they never promoted the £2 million reward, but thhe mystery remains, if Madeleine did die in 5a, how did they dispose of her body.

This is open to debate Panda and until more facts come to light we cannot be absolutely sure. I personally think they disposed of her body where it would never ever be found. One option would be out at sea, could easily get on a boat with one of their friends e.g. for example, john geraghty was closely helping them and he was a wealthy millionaire who could have easily had a boat or knew of people who did. wealthy & boats go hand in hand especially in that part of the world. Or they cremated her in the church


I was sitting next to a Lady on a Coach about 3 yrs ago travelling to Gatwick and would you believe it, she lived in Faro!!!! A Friend of hers was also
a Friend of Mrs Fenn and apparently it wasn't the only night Madeleine was crying. This Lady said the Portugese think Madeleine's body was thrown from cliffs, probably weighted down.


The thing about throwing from cliffs is that unless it is a sheer drop into the sea then any obstruction on the drop could cause the body to be lodged. So for me that is too great a risk of detection. However taken out to sea and dropped in a weighted bag could work but they would need a boat for that and knowledge of sea depths and currents.

To be honest, with the limited time the McCanns had and even though they knew people who could help.....would they!!! Would you conspire with an
acquaintance to dispose of a body????? The only theory worth exploring is Gerry finding Madeleine already dead on his 9pm check, he hastily put her
body in the Tennis Bag and hid it in the Garden . then while everyone was searching he took the Bag to a safer hideout until it could be disposed of properly .

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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  Panda on Sun 15 Jul - 14:07



That's right widowan.... Abduction is to takke by force, Kidnap is to take by force for a ransom.

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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  jd16 on Sun 15 Jul - 14:18

They knew not to say "kidnap" as there would never be a ransom demanded. All they ever said to anyone who would listen is abduction, abduction, abduction. They only ever needed this scenario and why they told absolutely everyone so

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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  widowan on Sun 15 Jul - 14:19

Panda wrote:

That's right widowan.... Abduction is to takke by force, Kidnap is to take by force for a ransom.

It's odd to me that anyone knows that but I guess we're all more educated now than we were 5 years ago!

And odd that they'd be using the correct if unusual term, so early on. She's been abducted! Someone has taken our daughter, who doesn't intend to ransom her back to us! How would they know that only an hour later?

Most people here would say kidnapped, or taken. They wouldn't start using the proper legal term immediately - but I suppose you've got to call it something before you've investigated and found out it was a kidnap, an abduction or merely a missing child who has wanderred off.

IIRC the resort wasn't so quick to call it anything but a missing child for some time, despite the parents hysterical insistence that they KNEW Madeleine wouldn't have wandered off. This is where I concur with Ann Enright's Doctor friend, that the child had been sedated. What good luck for an abductor and what bad luck for Madeleine.

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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  widowan on Sun 15 Jul - 14:25

jd16 wrote:They knew not to say "kidnap" as there would never be a ransom demanded. All they ever said to anyone who would listen is abduction, abduction, abduction. They only ever needed this scenario and why they told absolutely everyone so

That's true I never heard them use the common word, kidnapped.

When they insisted she couldn't have wandered off or would never do such a thing, i wondered, how do you know? Is it just that you don't want to admit you left the doors unlocked and an adventurous child who is old enough to get out of bed and run down the path looking for mummy, in the bar, that is a scenario you don't want people to conjur up, beacues someone could have grabbed her at that time or she could have been knocked down by a car...

You'd SUSPECT in horror that she had been taken - at least I would - because that is the worst nightmare. A parent that would come back and calmly say - oh, she must have woken up and finding us not in, went out for an ice cream. I'm sure she'll be back straight away when she finds the beach deserted and the shop closed.

But they seemed to like abduction straight off the bat. I'd find it difficult to get my mouth around that word, it's not the one you'd reach for in the immediate hysteria of finding your little girl missing. No one but the parents knew what to call it, she's missing or she's just gone, or has been kidnapped or what.

They could KNOW she wasn't out walking on her own if they had sedated her along with the twins - but they couldn't know if whoever's got her planned to ask for a ransom.


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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  Panda on Sun 15 Jul - 14:26

widowan wrote:
Panda wrote:

That's right widowan.... Abduction is to takke by force, Kidnap is to take by force for a ransom.

It's odd to me that anyone knows that but I guess we're all more educated now than we were 5 years ago!

And odd that they'd be using the correct if unusual term, so early on. She's been abducted! Someone has taken our daughter, who doesn't intend to ransom her back to us! How would they know that only an hour later?

Most people here would say kidnapped, or taken. They wouldn't start using the proper legal term immediately - but I suppose you've got to call it something before you've investigated and found out it was a kidnap, an abduction or merely a missing child who has wanderred off.

IIRC the resort wasn't so quick to call it anything but a missing child for some time, despite the parents hysterical insistence that they KNEW Madeleine wouldn't have wandered off. This is where I concur with Ann Enright's Doctor friend, that the child had been sedated. What good luck for an abductor and what bad luck for Madeleine.

I think it is tragic that Madeleine, a pretty little girl not only lost her life through her Parents neglect but is now a back seat to her Parents Egos. Why
do they insist on being in the Limelight , theyv'e got plenty of money feel safe that they will never be charged with anything so why not concentrate on the Twins and lead a normal life.

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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  jd16 on Sun 15 Jul - 14:47

widowan wrote:
jd16 wrote:They knew not to say "kidnap" as there would never be a ransom demanded. All they ever said to anyone who would listen is abduction, abduction, abduction. They only ever needed this scenario and why they told absolutely everyone so

That's true I never heard them use the common word, kidnapped.

When they insisted she couldn't have wandered off or would never do such a thing, i wondered, how do you know? Is it just that you don't want to admit you left the doors unlocked and an adventurous child who is old enough to get out of bed and run down the path looking for mummy, in the bar, that is a scenario you don't want people to conjur up, beacues someone could have grabbed her at that time or she could have been knocked down by a car...

You'd SUSPECT in horror that she had been taken - at least I would - because that is the worst nightmare. A parent that would come back and calmly say - oh, she must have woken up and finding us not in, went out for an ice cream. I'm sure she'll be back straight away when she finds the beach deserted and the shop closed.

But they seemed to like abduction straight off the bat. I'd find it difficult to get my mouth around that word, it's not the one you'd reach for in the immediate hysteria of finding your little girl missing. No one but the parents knew what to call it, she's missing or she's just gone, or has been kidnapped or what.

They could KNOW she wasn't out walking on her own if they had sedated her along with the twins - but they couldn't know if whoever's got her planned to ask for a ransom.


To purport just one scenario at that particular moment in time and not entertain any other scenario, smacks of pre planning to me. A very good point 'they couldn't know if whoever's got her planned to ask for a ransom'. They never entertained the idea of kidnap and as you rightly say, how could they know it wasn't kidnap (and only abduction of which there has never been a shred of evidence to support after 5 years of intense investigation and scrutiny)

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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  mummy45 on Sun 15 Jul - 14:50

Why would he go to these lengths if there was not some truth in it?

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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  widowan on Sun 15 Jul - 14:56

mummy45 wrote:Why would he go to these lengths if there was not some truth in it?

The only think I can think of is publicity.

Selling papers or getting into the papers and then onto tv for interviews and such, has driven much of the behavior in this case.

You wouldn't think people would barter their good name and honor for their 15 minutes of fame, but hey, if it's good enough for David Cameron, it ought to be good enough for this guy.

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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Post  jd16 on Sun 15 Jul - 15:00

mummy45 wrote:Why would he go to these lengths if there was not some truth in it?

To conceal and cover up a fatality they had to have a plan to steer away from the truth, and abduction is the only one that will not reveal a body or be likely to. They told everyone from the police to every family & friends they could think of phoning that night, that the shutters had been jemmied. If they can lie about this to everyone then they can lie about the truth by purporting abduction

jd16
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Re: McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

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