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Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

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Re: Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

Post  HiDeHo on Tue 28 Aug - 11:25

I'm still working on it but have run into a curious problem...

I can't seem to find any news reports about the cadaaver dogs 'findings'. eg. 'Breaking news'. Lots of cadaver dog videos and some DNA (Martin Brunt) but it's probably me (too early in the morning?). Some documentary comments also but no 'news'. (nothing on Sky)

Can anyone point me in the direction of news reports about the dogs?

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Re: Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

Post  mumbles on Tue 28 Aug - 12:01

HiDeHo wrote:I'm still working on it but have run into a curious problem...

I can't seem to find any news reports about the cadaaver dogs 'findings'. eg. 'Breaking news'. Lots of cadaver dog videos and some DNA (Martin Brunt) but it's probably me (too early in the morning?). Some documentary comments also but no 'news'. (nothing on Sky)

Can anyone point me in the direction of news reports about the dogs?

Is this any good for you?


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Re: Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

Post  HiDeHo on Tue 28 Aug - 12:04

Ohh sorry Mumbles...Appreciate that but I didn't make it clear I was looking for Madeleine videos of Breaking news with Cadaver dogs.

I am finding DNA news but can't seem to find the dogs as news.

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Re: Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

Post  Wallflower on Tue 28 Aug - 13:08

Hideho the Sunonline had a good few minutes footage of the dogs and their findings.

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Re: Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

Post  cass on Tue 28 Aug - 13:21

oh dear xtra immodium and loo roll needed for the mcanns and tapas spews

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bianca jones killer found guilty

Post  Justiceforallkids on Fri 12 Oct - 17:56

guess the dogs were right again woof woof

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Re: Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

Post  AnnaEsse on Fri 12 Oct - 18:14

LJH ‏@LadyUpminster
D'Andre Lane guilty in death of daughter http://www.freep.com/article/20121012/NEWS01/121012043/D-Andre-Lane-Bianca-Jones-verdict … Faked abduction. No body. Same expert dog team as in Madeleine #McCann case.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________
"You can run on for a long time, Run on for a long time, Run on for a long time, Sooner or later God'll cut you down." (Johnny Cash)

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Re: Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

Post  interested on Fri 12 Oct - 20:38

AnnaEsse wrote:LJH ‏@LadyUpminster
D'Andre Lane guilty in death of daughter http://www.freep.com/article/20121012/NEWS01/121012043/D-Andre-Lane-Bianca-Jones-verdict … Faked abduction. No body. Same expert dog team as in Madeleine #McCann case.

The jury obviously believed the dogs. I wonder if Mr. "ask the dogs" will hear about this (from Carter-Ruck possibly).

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Re: Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

Post  wjk on Fri 12 Oct - 20:48

Ah, well done those dogs!
RIP Bianca, sleep tight little one xx

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Re: Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

Post  Bobsy on Fri 12 Oct - 21:25

All these sweet children loosing their lives, what a sick world.

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Re: Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

Post  malena stool on Fri 12 Oct - 22:33

The world's fine Bobsy, it's the deviant sick perverts inhabiting it that like to play God...

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Re: Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

Post  ELI on Sat 13 Oct - 10:48

HiDeHo wrote:Can anyone suggest any video links on this?

I would love to do a video.

http://www.freep.com/article/20120418/NEWS02/204180363/Bianca-Jones-At-hearing-on-murder-abuse-charges-tot-s-sister-says-dad-hit-her
Bianca Jones: At hearing on murder, abuse charges, tot's sister says dad hit her

By Melanie D. Scott

Detroit Free Press Staff Writer

Wayne County

The 8-year-old sister of Bianca Jones testified Tuesday that her father, D'Andre Lane, hit her after she wet the bed and then stuffed the panties she had on into her mouth as part of her punishment.

"It was the time I thought I was on the toilet, but I was in the bed," the 8-year-old said about the incident. "He was holding them (the panties) in my face, then put them underneath my tongue and it hurt."

The testimony came after the girl told the court about what she said happened at Lane's house the morning of Dec. 2, the day 2-year-old Bianca disappeared.

"I didn't see Bebe," the girl said, referring to Bianca. The girl said she put on her school clothes, washed her face and waited in the living room for Lane.

As the girl got into the car, she said, Lane picked up the car seat carrying Bianca, but "the cover (her blanket) was over her."

The girl, who briefly waved to her father in court, testified that Bianca never tried to remove the cover from her face and that she was not making a sound. When Bianca slept, the girl said, "she usually snores."

Lane, 32, who was charged last month with first-degree felony murder and first-degree child abuse in connection with Bianca's disappearance, was in 36th District Court in Detroit for a preliminary examination Tuesday before Judge Ruth Carter. He faces life in prison without parole if convicted of the murder charge.

Although prosecutors contend Bianca was subjected to abuse from her father on the day she disappeared, Lane repeatedly has denied involvement in the toddler's disappearance.

Lane told police two men carjacked him at gunpoint and took off in his 2002 Mercury Grand Marquis with Bianca strapped in her car seat in the back on the morning of Dec. 2. Police found Lane's car running several blocks away from what he said was the carjacking site, but Bianca was not in the car. Prosecutors have presumed that she is dead.

Martin Grime, a forensic canine expert, testified that he traveled from England and arrived Dec. 4 in Detroit with two English springer spaniels: Morse, who specializes in victim recovery, and Keela, who detects human blood.

Grime said Morse detected a human decomposition odor in a room where Bianca slept at Lane's house as well as on her blanket and car seat found in Lane's car.

"The dog's final response is vocal," Grime said. "He barks, and as the dog searches, their behavior changes and they become more intense."

Morse searched inside and outside Lane's house in the 19300 block of Mitchell on Detroit's east side, Grime said. "There was an immediate change of behavior."

Grime said Morse was able to pick out Lane's car, which was parked among 31 others in a lot. The other cars in the lot did not get a response from the dog.

Grime said his dogs did not detect a decomposition odor on the clothing Lane was wearing the day he was taken into custody, which was the same day Bianca disappeared. He also said that a body starts decomposing immediately after breathing stops.






http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic457.html

Martin Grimes Rogatory Statement

Martin Grimes
CARTAS ROGATORIAS 3 Pages 21 to 25

Dated May 14 2008

I am a retired police offer, previously at the service of the South Yorkshire police. Between August 1-8, 2007, and while working for the South Yorkshire police, I collaborated with the Judicial Police, Portugal, as regards their Operations Task Force.
On the 17th of August 2007, I completed a report for the Head of Investigations of the Judicial Police, which was submitted by the Leicestershire Police. This report is exhibited as MG/1 and identified by the label bearing my signature. The Judicial Police is in possession of the originals of the search reports and the videos showing all searches performed and the reaction of the dogs. In addition to the report, Sam Harkeness of the Progresso Nacional Police Agency sent me by email several written questions sent by the Judicial Police together with a request for a written deposition. This deposition was submitted without me having seen or having knowledge of the final report from the forensic agency responsible for analyzing the evidence submitted in this case.

Questions and Answers:

Could you explain the methodology regarding the performance of the dogs bearing in mind the searches that were performed?
Please refer to my original report included in the summary (MG/1).

Could you provide a detailed summary of the orientation capacity of the dogs, as well as an interpretation of the indications provided by them in the specific cases?
Please refer to my original report included in the summary (MG/1).
The interpretation of any alert is given when the dogs recognize a specific odour as a result of a response to the behaviour for which they were trained. This response must then be submitted to a forensic examination in order to draw conclusions.

In order to establish the accuracy of the dogs' performance with respect to the alerts given when recognizing blood and a body, to what extent are these indications viable in this particular case?
The dogs' alerts are to be considered as an area of interest or possible testing. When specific and reliable this can only be measured for confirmation. In this case in particular, where the dogs alerted there was confirmation by positive results from the forensic examinations. It is the investigators' responsibility to apply the results of the forensic analysis to the suspects, witnesses and crime scenes.

Based upon the dogs' behaviour, is it possible to distinguish between a strong signal and a weak signal?
The dogs' passive CSI alert provides an indication as per their training and does not vary. They only give an alert when they are 'positive' that the target of the odour is present and immediately accessible. If they had any doubts they would not give an alert. EVRD gives an alert by means of a vocal bark. The variations in the vocal alert can be explained by many reasons such as 'thirst' or 'lack of air due to effort'. Every alert can be subject to interpretation, it has to be confirmed. The signals of an alert are only just that. Once the alert has been given by the dog, it is up to the investigator/forensic scientist to locate, identify and scientifically provide the evidence of DNA, etc.

Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog?
The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.

With respect to the cadaver odour on Kate's clothes, could it be undoubtedly affirmed that those clothes had been in contact with a cadaver?
OR
Could the alert have been given because the clothes had been in contact with other items of clothing, surfaces or objects that could previously have touched a cadaver, thereby allowing the odour to be transferred?
There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. Forensic confirmation and specialized investigation methods will determine the reasons and the suspicions. In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog.

The EVRD dog also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver?
The EVRD dog is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.

Taking into account the signals of CSI, could the dog alert to other biological fluids?
The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood. The components of blood are approximately:
Red cells 40-50%
Plasma 55% (of which 95% is water)
White cells
Platelets
DNA can only be removed from white cells.
This would suggest that, of the samples signalled by the dog looking for human blood, approximately 5% are available for DNA tests.

Is there any chance, however remote, of any confusion?
The dogs do not get confused. They transmit a behavioural response inspired by the recognition of the odour for which they were trained.

How long does a cadaver have to be in contact with a surface or an object for the odour to be detected?
Cross-contamination is immediate.

How long can a trace of blood remain at a scene and be detected by the CSI dog?
During both training and operations, the CSI dog correctly located and signalled the presence of blood from 1960. This is not at all surprising. If enough blood is present so that the dog can recognize its odor, he will locate it and alert to its presence. There is no time restriction as regards the recognition of the odour by the dog. Blood, however, is subject to deterioration such as time and other natural processes such as dilution due to rain and other reactive chemical agents.

Can the dog mix up traces of human odours with others that are non-human?
I cannot comment on what the dogs think. However, from a forensic point of view and from confirmations of scientific testimonies, the dogs appear to be extremely exact. But, forensic confirmation is required in all cases so as to be included as proof. The CSI dog is trained using only human blood. And using a wide spectrum of donors to ensure that the dog does not individualize them.
EVRD used to be trained using swine (pigs) as their odour is the closest to that of humans. But most of the time, however, the dog was trained using the odour of a human cadaver. Operationally, the dog has ignored large amounts of animal remains/bones when locating human decomposition.

Based upon your experience with the dogs, can you specify whether the positive signals given by them have always matched the scientific results?
I cannot. In this case, for example, not all the alert signals have been investigated by the appropriate agencies in order to provide forensic comparations, in spite of indications to the contrary. It also should be taken into account that the procedures for forensic testing are still less discriminating than the system of dogs' smell.
During training, the dogs are barely rewarded for positive alert signals regarding targets of known substances.

At any time, did Gerald McCann address, either in Portugal or the United Kingdom, the performance of the dogs in this case?
I never met nor spoken to Gerald McCann. However I do know that he addressed my head supervisor at the time, the South Yorkshire Head of Police, or Mr. Meredith Hughes.

This deposition was made by me and is true according to my understanding.



MG's says the results from the forensics were positive ? -


In order to establish the accuracy of the dogs' performance with respect to the alerts given when recognizing blood and a body, to what extent are these indications viable in this particular case?
The dogs' alerts are to be considered as an area of interest or possible testing. When specific and reliable this can only be measured for confirmation. In this case in particular, where the dogs alerted there was confirmation by positive results from the forensic examinations. It is the investigators' responsibility to apply the results of the forensic analysis to the suspects, witnesses and crime scenes.

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Re: Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

Post  Chris on Sat 13 Oct - 12:25

ELI wrote:

MG's says the results from the forensics were positive ? -


In order to establish the accuracy of the dogs' performance with respect to the alerts given when recognizing blood and a body, to what extent are these indications viable in this particular case?
The dogs' alerts are to be considered as an area of interest or possible testing. When specific and reliable this can only be measured for confirmation. In this case in particular, where the dogs alerted there was confirmation by positive results from the forensic examinations. It is the investigators' responsibility to apply the results of the forensic analysis to the suspects, witnesses and crime scenes.


Presumably positive in the sense material which they are trained to find was found. Analysis of the material was inconclusive.

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Re: Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

Post  ELI on Sat 13 Oct - 17:01

Chris wrote:
ELI wrote:

MG's says the results from the forensics were positive ? -


In order to establish the accuracy of the dogs' performance with respect to the alerts given when recognizing blood and a body, to what extent are these indications viable in this particular case?
The dogs' alerts are to be considered as an area of interest or possible testing. When specific and reliable this can only be measured for confirmation. In this case in particular, where the dogs alerted there was confirmation by positive results from the forensic examinations. It is the investigators' responsibility to apply the results of the forensic analysis to the suspects, witnesses and crime scenes.


Presumably positive in the sense material which they are trained to find was found. Analysis of the material was inconclusive.

Ah yes that is correct , it was the ' opinion ' of J.Lowe wasn't it that the results couldn't determine whether or not the material did or didn't come from Madeleine McCann.

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Re: Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

Post  HiDeHo on Mon 15 Oct - 2:20

I am currently working on one of the biggest challenges in videos to date.

With help, (very patient and knowledgeable help) I am taking a 'crash course' in DNA etc as it corresponds to the Madeleine case.

I am hoping to produce a video that will not only show the 'no evidence' mantra as being questionable, but also to put the results and details of the case, the forensic discrepancies and the stats etc into an easy to understand format.

There are may 'questions' and surprises in the forensics that most people are not aware of. (until very soon at least!)

I took time out to do this video....not sure if I have posted it in here

Guilty Verdict: Bianca Jones Murder Trial - CADAVER Dog Testimony


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Re: Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

Post  jinvta on Mon 15 Oct - 4:25

The guilty verdict in the Bianca Jones case does not give me confidence that the McCanns will be found guilty in the absence of a body. Casey Anthony was aquitted even when a body was found. I think that the circustantial evidence in Bianca's case was just so strong, that it was clear to all jurors exactly what happened in this case. Madeleine and Caylee's cases aren't so cut and dry. Yes, all three have the cadaver odor in common, but there has to be much more than that in order to assure a conviction. This man was obsessed with potty training, he was seen putting a lifeless body in the car covered by a blanket, and most importantly why a carjacker would hide a dead body would be beyond anyone's comprehension.

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Re: Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

Post  kitti on Mon 15 Oct - 7:16

Didn't anthony ADMIT to her child's death.....isn't that ENOUGH nowadays to convict someone....?

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Re: Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

Post  jinvta on Mon 15 Oct - 18:22

Yes, but Casey never admitted to causing Caylee's death. It was a huge mistake for prosecutors to not charge for disposing of a corpse, for which she would likely have been found guilty. At least she does not appear to be profiting off of her crime as are the McCanns.

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Re: Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

Post  Karen on Tue 4 Dec - 8:44

UPDATE:
‎12/3/2012: Missing Bianca Jones Murder Case Update: Father sentenced to life: Detroit, Michigan: D'Andre Lane insisted Monday that he didn't murder or abuse hi
s missing toddler daughter and called a judge a "liar" for ordering him to prison for life. "I did not murder my child. I did not abuse my child. I love my children, all of them," said Lane of Detroit in his plea to Wayne County Circuit Judge Vonda R. Evans before she imposed the sentence. "My daughter is alive. She's missing, she will be found. We will correct every wrong that's taken place in this system." The 32-year-old Detroit man was convicted in October of felony murder and child abuse in the Dec. 2, 2011, death of Bianca Jones. Prosecutors say the father of seven paddled the 2-year-old to death over a bed-wetting incident, disposed of her body at an incinerator and fabricated a carjacking to cover up the crime.

Evans, before she imposed the mandatory minimum penalty, told Lane he used "sex, manipulation, mental abuse and excessive discipline" to control those around him.

"It was your way or the highway," she said. "That poor child — your child, Mr. Lane — you destroyed mentally and ultimately physically … you will now pay with your own life."

The remarks got even more heated when Lane began addressing Evans by her first name, repeatedly calling her "Vonda" and saying "you're a liar" as he was being escorted from the courtroom.

Lane's attorney, Terry L. Johnson, said his client lashed out because he's "upset" and "emotional."

"It was out of character…he was just sentenced to life in prison," Johnson told reporters after the hearing.

Johnson, moments earlier, had urged the judge to grant Lane a new trial, saying there was no evidence to support the conviction, which was a "trial by media," he said.

Lane's defense team at the trial contended that prosecution couldn't prove the father of seven children from seven different women abused or killed Bianca since her body hasn't been found.

Lane has claimed Bianca was in the back seat of his 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis that December morning when he was approached by armed carjackers near Brush Street and Grand River. The car was recovered shortly after, but the girl was not inside. Lane did not call 911.

Bianca's mother, Banika Jones, also addressed the court Monday, saying she was "cheated" by the justice system.

"They never looked for my daughter," she claimed. "They never really cared, they only wanted evidence and a conviction and to close out the case without solving it.

"I want the court to know they made a mistake, and I intend to correct it."

But Wayne County Assistant Prosecutor Carin Goldfarb said the people responsible for caring for Bianca failed and that the jury returned a "correct" verdict.

At trial, Lane's housemates testified that the child had been disciplined with a hard stick wrapped in duct tape in the overnight hours prior to her disappearance.

Lane, in a five-hour videotaped interview with police, admitted he disciplined the child with the stick and said Bianca hadn't slept well after she fell out of bed and hit her head around 1 a.m. He claimed he then used the stick to keep her up.

A contentious piece of evidence in the circumstantial case was testimony from forensic canine expert Martin Grime whose cadaver-sniffing dog allegedly hit on human decomposition in Lane's car and Mitchell Street home two days after Bianca went missing.

Johnson attacked the relatively new scientific method, noting Grime admitted there's no methodology to confirm the response — barking — is accurate when nothing is recovered.


Jurors deliberated for more than seven hours before reaching a verdict in the monthlong trial.

Johnson said Monday that an appeals attorney is expected to review Lane's case.

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Re: Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

Post  Panda on Tue 4 Dec - 9:21

"Lane's girlfriend, Anjali Lyons, has testified she awoke Dec. 2 to Bianca's screams as Lane used the stick to beat the toddler for urinating in bed. Later the same morning, Lane carried a silent Bianca to his car. She was covered with an animal print blanket."

Much as Morse is to be credited, this information was vital and must be considered paramount to the case.

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Re: Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

Post  Not Born Yesterday on Tue 4 Dec - 9:35

I'm happy to see this man locked up for a long time after hearing how he treated Bianca, even if by some tiny chance he did not kill her.

I imagine that his other children are sleeping more safely in their beds now.

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Re: Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

Post  Loopdaloop on Tue 4 Dec - 21:53

This is great news. We often follow legal precedent set in the states and allow similar evidence in court.
I'll be waiting for grimes to go to court to testify re the mccanns.

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Re: Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

Post  margaret on Fri 7 Dec - 11:53

Annabel wrote:

Forensic canine expert Martin Grime testified Friday and at Lane's prior preliminary examination that he brought in his victim recovery dog, Morse, two days after the girl went missing. He said the dog detected a cadaver scent inside Lane's car, on the child's blanket and car seat, and in the girl's bedroom and Lane's home.

Grime said the dogs detect only the generic scent of human decomposition.

Hope people get the significance of that. No rotting meat, dirty nappies or sea bass.

Over to you pros....

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Re: Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

Post  tigger on Fri 7 Dec - 13:08

margaret wrote:
Annabel wrote:

Forensic canine expert Martin Grime testified Friday and at Lane's prior preliminary examination that he brought in his victim recovery dog, Morse, two days after the girl went missing. He said the dog detected a cadaver scent inside Lane's car, on the child's blanket and car seat, and in the girl's bedroom and Lane's home.

Grime said the dogs detect only the generic scent of human decomposition.

Hope people get the significance of that. No rotting meat, dirty nappies or sea bass.

Over to you pros....

We must keep the results of the trial - I think it was also the dogs (not Martin Grimes') in the April case which convinced the police. Can't wait for the case to come to court.

Remember that headline 'Find the body and prove we've done it!' in September 07?

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Re: Martin Grimes will testify on found cadaver scent - no body found

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