A Dissection of the EBook about the McCanns

jassi wrote:

Panda wrote:Morning jassi, I have never read that Payne was the last person , he was in the apartment about 6pm , before the McCanns went to the Restaurant at 8.30pm . What is annoying me now is the whitewash Redwood is conducting regarding the McCanns culpability.

Perhaps I expressed myself badly. Payne was the last one prior to McCann's claim of 9pm ish.

On reflection, I realise that in fact Kate says that she saw Madeleine at 8.30, so I should have said 'except for the parents' in mentioning Payne.

jassi, this whole investigation is flawed, from the very beginning. Let's say you and I are the two Policemen to arrive, who took the photographs of Gerry lying prostrate in the Foyer of the OC? who took the photo of Kate and Gerry kneeling on the bed? Sylvia Batista said some of the Tapas group were walking around the apartment making calls on their mobiles. The first thing we would do is usher everyone out except the Parents. As Police Officers we would note that the twins slept through all this commotion and have hair samples taken before they were moved to another Apartment. These samples to be sent to their own Forensic Dept. The McCanns could hardly refuse if they were innocent of sedating the twins.

the mcanns are drs they know whats what confuse from the start its worked and still working - what now ? think all rests on mcanns and ga trial - all this will end then

cass wrote:the mcanns are drs they know whats what confuse from the start its worked and still working - what now ? think all rests on mcanns and ga trial - all this will end then

Morning Cass, yes, I really hope Amaral wins, he shouldn't be airing his views at such a crucial time though. I don't know when the last Trial date is, some time in November ....a long wait eh? 

morning panda
i know its a civil case between the mcanns and ga - but imo everyone is awaiting now - i think that sy will close the case and portugal maybe will make a statement too then - just say the mcanns win - how many years can this carry on - if ga wins that will be the end imo

Mccanns won't win and the Walls off Jericho will come tumbling down.

cass wrote:morning panda
i know its a civil case between the mcanns and ga - but imo everyone is awaiting now - i think that sy will close the case and portugal maybe will make a statement too then - just say the mcanns win - how many years can this carry on - if ga wins that will be the end imo

Yes, they can't hold their heads up again if they lose, and it will cost them dearly . I am on my way our now but had a little read of this eBook.
The Author is commenting on Kate's book where she says "despite the noise and pandemonium they hadn't stirred" and puts her hand on their back to check for chest movement. Author:"But we are told a qualified Anaesthetist merely ........placed the palms of my hands on their backs to check for chest movement, basically for some signs of life.

Could somebody tell me why the libel trial has stopped and put forward to November ? Is this a usual part of Portugese legal proceedings ?

mossman wrote:Could somebody tell me why the libel trial has stopped and put forward to November ?  Is this a usual part of Portugese legal proceedings ?

It is.

Claudia79 wrote:

mossman wrote:Could somebody tell me why the libel trial has stopped and put forward to November ?  Is this a usual part of Portugese legal proceedings ?

It is.

Thank you very much  

cass wrote:morning panda
i know its a civil case between the mcanns and ga - but imo everyone is awaiting now - i think that sy will close the case and portugal maybe will make a statement too then - just say the mcanns win - how many years can this carry on - if ga wins that will be the end imo

If and when GA wins, then there will be appeal after appeal, this will carry on for years to come!

fred wrote:

cass wrote:morning panda
i know its a civil case between the mcanns and ga - but imo everyone is awaiting now - i think that sy will close the case and portugal maybe will make a statement too then - just say the mcanns win - how many years can this carry on - if ga wins that will be the end imo

If and when GA wins, then there will be appeal after appeal, this will carry on for years to come!

They can outlast him if willing to spend money on lawyers but since they are suing him I think they will say how shockingly bad the Portuguese justice system is, but then we lal knew that, etc and just move on.

I think it'd be hard to stay silent if I were he, win or lose I would want it known that they and their Bundleman nonsense and invented timelines had severely and negatively impacted the investigation, the constant publicizing of misleading info and untruths - essentially SY is disregarding those same interview results, only they are doing so assuming McTeam was innocent and PJ did so beginning to think that they were guilty, which is understandable at least to me. Maybe I think more like Amaral than Redwood does, but I have a hard time understanding why you'd lie and mislead an investigation for your child if you weren't guilty; knew or believed she could still be alive, and wanted to find her - you would tell the truth.

Adding a bit more of intelligent observation from the EBook:-

"The McCanns and many of their Tapas 7 friends are medically trained.Both Dr. Kate McCann and Dr. Fiona Payne are trained to a high standard in anaesthetics , in fact both were Junior Registrars.
Their continued insistance on sedation by an intruder as a viable proposition, when combined with the unambiguous admission in their statements , in interviews, and in the book , of clearly defined professional negligence in their manifest failure to provide, or even consider , any form of resuscitation is baffling.These qualified anaesthetists simply put a palm on a child's back , or a finger under its nose.

There is no record of proper and medically correct post-anaesthesia care, None, Nothing."

Panda wrote:Adding a bit more of intelligent observation from the EBook:-

"The McCanns and many of their Tapas 7 friends are medically trained.Both Dr. Kate McCann and Dr. Fiona Payne are trained to a high standard in anaesthetics , in fact both were Junior Registrars.
Their continued insistance on sedation by an intruder as a viable proposition, when combined with the unambiguous admission in their statements , in interviews, and in the book , of clearly defined professional negligence in their manifest failure to provide, or even consider , any form of resuscitation is baffling.These qualified anaesthetists simply put a palm on a child's back , or a finger under its nose.

There is no record of proper and medically correct post-anaesthesia care, None, Nothing."

Good point, given their later insistence that the kids had been drugged. I had forgotten about this aspect of it and the self testing on the twins' hair (or some hair, said to be the twins) much later.

I know people who consider themselves very good parents who would not hesitate to offer Benadryll to a young child to "help them sleep" and I thought the we've let her down comment might be about that - having the child so drugged up and exhausted that she couldn't properly wake up and fight or scream if attacked. But the notion that THAT would have been a possibility against an adult bent on abduction is just sad. they should have been there.

widowan wrote:

Panda wrote:Adding a bit more of intelligent observation from the EBook:-

"The McCanns and many of their Tapas 7 friends are medically trained.Both Dr. Kate McCann and Dr. Fiona Payne are trained to a high standard in anaesthetics , in fact both were Junior Registrars.
Their continued insistance on sedation by an intruder as a viable proposition, when combined with the unambiguous admission in their statements , in interviews, and in the book , of clearly defined professional negligence in their manifest failure to provide, or even consider , any form of resuscitation is baffling.These qualified anaesthetists simply put a palm on a child's back , or a finger under its nose.

There is no record of proper and medically correct post-anaesthesia care, None, Nothing."

Good point, given their later insistence that the kids had been drugged. I had forgotten about this aspect of it and the self testing on the twins' hair (or some hair, said to be the twins) much later.

I know people who consider themselves very good parents who would not hesitate to offer Benadryll to a young child to "help them sleep" and I thought the we've let her down comment might be about that - having the child so drugged up and exhausted that she couldn't properly wake up and fight or scream if attacked. But the notion that THAT would have been a possibility against an adult bent on abduction is just sad. they should have been there.

Widowan, all the McCanns have done since day is deny any blame for Madeleine's disappearance , when I read the the Portugese Police had allowed Gerry to sit in on Kate's interview, apparently he was behind her with one hand on her shoulder it was to make sure she didn't break down and spill the beans.

Drugging your children doesn't make you responsible for the disappearance, of course. It is hardly going to win you the "Stamp of Responsible Parenting" however. And I think doctors would be held to a higher standard in that regard, it's really shocking.

widowan wrote:Drugging your children doesn't make you responsible for the disappearance, of course. It is hardly going to win you the "Stamp of Responsible Parenting" however. And I think doctors would be held to a higher standard in that regard, it's really shocking.

Didn't Gerry say "It was like dining in our Garden" when it was obvious they could not get a clear view of their department. Kate was asked by Jane Hill at a BBC interview why she didn't help in the search for Madeleine when many Portugese searched , some even taking time off work . Kate's response "well, we were busy....how come she still gets a lot of sympathy and we are the Baddies ?

I think their attempts to minimize the stupidity of leaving the kids like that are pretty transparent, the group think with all 9 of these really kicked in. I noted on Crimewatch they referred to the 50 yard distance, I have a large garden - much larger than theirs in Rothley from that one tv thing they aired - and it's 40 feet from the end of back patio to the fence. 50 yards would put me across the bayou into someone else's back garden.

I am sure it FELT like dining in the back garden because you were near the house. I'm not fancy, I don't DINE in my garden but we give plenty of barbecues and such, when my kids were smaller we had a picnic table on the patio, and I know that sitting out there with the kids upstairs in bed is in no way remotely like leaving kids in an unlocked apt in a foreign country and going down the stairs, out to the street, past the pool in through the gate and to a noisy bar where you can neither see nor hear what is going on inside the house.

Absolutely. I also began to think my children and grandchildren must be more over-lively and more resourceful and mischievous than the Mccann's. Our grandchild twins could gate-vault or clamber out of a travel cot at Sean and Amelie's age, and the older one would have been up and about, switching the lights on and off, raiding the fridge, jumping off the parents' bed, pulling stuff out of cupboards, and above all going out onto the balcony yelling: 'Mummy, Daddy... where are you?' That is however tired they were by the day's activities... In an exciting new holiday flat they would have been 'exploring its possibilities', so to speak. They would know they had been left on their own for sure, though if the parents were there, they might well have been content to amuse themselves with toys or books or what have you in theit bed/cots. Mind you, I didn't see too many favourite toys or books about the place: did anyone else? Only Madeleine's cuddle cat and the pink blanket come to mind.

comperedna wrote:Absolutely. I also began to think my children and grandchildren must be more over-lively and more resourceful and mischievous than the Mccann's. Our grandchild twins could gate-vault or clamber out of a travel cot at Sean and Amelie's age, and the older one would have been up and about, switching the lights on and off, raiding the fridge, jumping off the parents' bed, pulling stuff out of cupboards, and above all going out onto the balcony yelling: 'Mummy, Daddy... where are you?' That is however tired they were by the day's activities...  In an exciting new holiday flat they would have been 'exploring its possibilities', so to speak. They would know they had been left on their own for sure, though if the parents were there, they might well have been content to amuse themselves with toys or books or what have you in theit bed/cots. Mind you, I didn't see too many favourite toys or books about the place: did anyone else? Only Madeleine's cuddle cat and the pink blanket come to mind.

You forgot the Colouring book that was used to write down the timelines, comparedna:grin: In total, the McCanns only saw their children about 5 hrs a day The children were in bed by 7.30 and the McCanns in the Restaurant by 8.30pm. ...I think it's very hard to get three young children to sleep simultaneously ...unless some method was used.

comperedna wrote:Absolutely. I also began to think my children and grandchildren must be more over-lively and more resourceful and mischievous than the Mccann's. Our grandchild twins could gate-vault or clamber out of a travel cot at Sean and Amelie's age, and the older one would have been up and about, switching the lights on and off, raiding the fridge, jumping off the parents' bed, pulling stuff out of cupboards, and above all going out onto the balcony yelling: 'Mummy, Daddy... where are you?' That is however tired they were by the day's activities...  In an exciting new holiday flat they would have been 'exploring its possibilities', so to speak. They would know they had been left on their own for sure, though if the parents were there, they might well have been content to amuse themselves with toys or books or what have you in theit bed/cots. Mind you, I didn't see too many favourite toys or books about the place: did anyone else? Only Madeleine's cuddle cat and the pink blanket come to mind.

I have said that before, there is no "stuff" around the apartment.

I had three children under three years old and what I did not travel with ! Even when I cut it down to the bare minimum, we would acquire no end of new "stuff" whilst there. Buckets, spades, footballs, beach balls. I remember my eldest having a tantrum one year because I had to leave a giant inflatable crocodile my husband had bought for the beach behind.

The pictures of 5a always sadden me. You would never think there were three little children staying there. The photos are empty and lonely. There was not even any make and do things from the crèche displayed.

comperedna wrote:Absolutely. I also began to think my children and grandchildren must be more over-lively and more resourceful and mischievous than the Mccann's. Our grandchild twins could gate-vault or clamber out of a travel cot at Sean and Amelie's age, and the older one would have been up and about, switching the lights on and off, raiding the fridge, jumping off the parents' bed, pulling stuff out of cupboards, and above all going out onto the balcony yelling: 'Mummy, Daddy... where are you?' That is however tired they were by the day's activities...  In an exciting new holiday flat they would have been 'exploring its possibilities', so to speak. They would know they had been left on their own for sure, though if the parents were there, they might well have been content to amuse themselves with toys or books or what have you in theit bed/cots. Mind you, I didn't see too many favourite toys or books about the place: did anyone else? Only Madeleine's cuddle cat and the pink blanket come to mind.

Mine too - I wouldn't call our kids naughty, just lively, active, curious, and therefore prone to accidents.

There is no way that if one of ours woke up she would lie and cry in her bed, she'd be out on that balcony or in the lounge and kitchen. I think the Calpol may have had something to do with why they claimed to know Maddie could not or would not leave the apt. - remember the sticker chart for staying in bed on the fridge at home? We had one too. Many parents do, as they train their kids to more independent sleep habits. Both Kate and Gerry looked to see if Maddie had gone in to sleep with them, which she was being trained not to do at home. She wasn't going to stay in that bed if awake, I shouldn't think.

Like yours, ours would be content if we were there to play under our feet or in the bedroom with each other but let you attempt ONE THING that requires them to behave quietly and amuse themselves- whether it's a phone call or taking a shower - and there would be insistent little voices and fingers. I used to tell myself it was a hold over from cave man days, when being left on their own could mean getting eaten by tigers - they are biologically programmed, as are their mothers, to have a short tether between a 2 year old and the parent - never out of voice range, never out of eyesight unless asleep verifiably in their own bed or somewhere safe.

I think those listening services do a DIS service to parents in making them believe children are safely left on their own while you are out. And they have those all over Europe and possibly elsewhere.

mossman wrote:

comperedna wrote:Absolutely. I also began to think my children and grandchildren must be more over-lively and more resourceful and mischievous than the Mccann's. Our grandchild twins could gate-vault or clamber out of a travel cot at Sean and Amelie's age, and the older one would have been up and about, switching the lights on and off, raiding the fridge, jumping off the parents' bed, pulling stuff out of cupboards, and above all going out onto the balcony yelling: 'Mummy, Daddy... where are you?' That is however tired they were by the day's activities...  In an exciting new holiday flat they would have been 'exploring its possibilities', so to speak. They would know they had been left on their own for sure, though if the parents were there, they might well have been content to amuse themselves with toys or books or what have you in theit bed/cots. Mind you, I didn't see too many favourite toys or books about the place: did anyone else? Only Madeleine's cuddle cat and the pink blanket come to mind.

I have said that before, there is no "stuff" around the apartment.

I had three children under three years old and what I did not travel with !  Even when I cut it down to the bare minimum, we would acquire no end of new "stuff" whilst there.  Buckets, spades, footballs, beach balls.  I remember my eldest having a tantrum one year because I had to leave a giant inflatable crocodile my husband had bought for the beach behind.  

The pictures of 5a always sadden me.  You would never think there were three little children staying there.  The photos are empty and lonely.  There was not even any make and do things from the crèche displayed.

I've just had my 7 year-old grandson to stay for a couple of days. From our outings, lots of "stuff" was lying around the house that had to be gathered up before his father arrived to collect him. There's also something that got left behind: a large floor puzzle of the human body is still on the lounge floor. This is what happens when small children are around a place for more than a day or so!

mossman wrote:

comperedna wrote:Absolutely. I also began to think my children and grandchildren must be more over-lively and more resourceful and mischievous than the Mccann's. Our grandchild twins could gate-vault or clamber out of a travel cot at Sean and Amelie's age, and the older one would have been up and about, switching the lights on and off, raiding the fridge, jumping off the parents' bed, pulling stuff out of cupboards, and above all going out onto the balcony yelling: 'Mummy, Daddy... where are you?' That is however tired they were by the day's activities...  In an exciting new holiday flat they would have been 'exploring its possibilities', so to speak. They would know they had been left on their own for sure, though if the parents were there, they might well have been content to amuse themselves with toys or books or what have you in theit bed/cots. Mind you, I didn't see too many favourite toys or books about the place: did anyone else? Only Madeleine's cuddle cat and the pink blanket come to mind.

I have said that before, there is no "stuff" around the apartment.

I had three children under three years old and what I did not travel with !  Even when I cut it down to the bare minimum, we would acquire no end of new "stuff" whilst there.  Buckets, spades, footballs, beach balls.  I remember my eldest having a tantrum one year because I had to leave a giant inflatable crocodile my husband had bought for the beach behind.  

The pictures of 5a always sadden me.  You would never think there were three little children staying there.  The photos are empty and lonely.  There was not even any make and do things from the crèche displayed.

Maybe she tidied away all their books and toys? They did have books, she read one to them for night time. And Maddie had her sticker book, they had soft toys - that is not an unusual packing list for me with young kids - something for the older one to do on the plane, a few books and night time toys, you can buy buckets and spades and beach balls at the beach and leave them, as you did.

But they may have been thinking, they've got the crèche toys to play with, all new to them and they've got the beach. All that is needed for that is proper clothing, a healthy pair of legs, and an imagination, with a 2 year old a bucket is plenty, you don't need a spade, hands are for digging. They were a sporty family, I think.

The house does seem rather empty - God knows my house looked like a toy store had exploded, at least until we had clean up time, even then there were big shelves and toy box in the family room and tons of stuff in the bedroom but I would give them the benefit of the doubt because they had the beach and pool and crèche. We tended to pack lightly for holidays, this wasn't their home and the parents knew they'd have plenty of time in the crèche and playground with the nannies.

AnnaEsse wrote:

mossman wrote:

comperedna wrote:Absolutely. I also began to think my children and grandchildren must be more over-lively and more resourceful and mischievous than the Mccann's. Our grandchild twins could gate-vault or clamber out of a travel cot at Sean and Amelie's age, and the older one would have been up and about, switching the lights on and off, raiding the fridge, jumping off the parents' bed, pulling stuff out of cupboards, and above all going out onto the balcony yelling: 'Mummy, Daddy... where are you?' That is however tired they were by the day's activities...  In an exciting new holiday flat they would have been 'exploring its possibilities', so to speak. They would know they had been left on their own for sure, though if the parents were there, they might well have been content to amuse themselves with toys or books or what have you in theit bed/cots. Mind you, I didn't see too many favourite toys or books about the place: did anyone else? Only Madeleine's cuddle cat and the pink blanket come to mind.

I have said that before, there is no "stuff" around the apartment.

I had three children under three years old and what I did not travel with !  Even when I cut it down to the bare minimum, we would acquire no end of new "stuff" whilst there.  Buckets, spades, footballs, beach balls.  I remember my eldest having a tantrum one year because I had to leave a giant inflatable crocodile my husband had bought for the beach behind.  

The pictures of 5a always sadden me.  You would never think there were three little children staying there.  The photos are empty and lonely.  There was not even any make and do things from the crèche displayed.

I've just had my 7 year-old grandson to stay for a couple of days. From our outings, lots of "stuff" was lying around the house that had to be gathered up before his father arrived to collect him. There's also something that got left behind: a large floor puzzle of the human body is still on the lounge floor. This is what happens when small children are around a place for more than a day or so!

Hi annaesse - I had to laugh reading about the floor puzzle of the human body- we had several of the big ones with dinosaurs too and I was just wishing, now my daughter is getting old enough to be within five years of having her own children, that I'd kept those; they aren't cheap.

but presumably your grandson came to you in a car, with a boot that could fit things for him, the holiday group came on a plane. My practice was to have them carry what they wanted in their little Thomas or Hello Kitty backpack and whatever could fit in could go, that's a carry- on. If I knew I was going somewhere there would be toys available I allowed myself to pack lightly.

They seem to have misread the weather and maybe did not have clothing that would permit days at the beach if it wasn't hot or at least warm and sunny. Cold wet kids on a damp blowy beach don't last long, before they want to go home.

widowan wrote:

AnnaEsse wrote:

mossman wrote:

comperedna wrote:Absolutely. I also began to think my children and grandchildren must be more over-lively and more resourceful and mischievous than the Mccann's. Our grandchild twins could gate-vault or clamber out of a travel cot at Sean and Amelie's age, and the older one would have been up and about, switching the lights on and off, raiding the fridge, jumping off the parents' bed, pulling stuff out of cupboards, and above all going out onto the balcony yelling: 'Mummy, Daddy... where are you?' That is however tired they were by the day's activities...  In an exciting new holiday flat they would have been 'exploring its possibilities', so to speak. They would know they had been left on their own for sure, though if the parents were there, they might well have been content to amuse themselves with toys or books or what have you in theit bed/cots. Mind you, I didn't see too many favourite toys or books about the place: did anyone else? Only Madeleine's cuddle cat and the pink blanket come to mind.

I have said that before, there is no "stuff" around the apartment.

I had three children under three years old and what I did not travel with !  Even when I cut it down to the bare minimum, we would acquire no end of new "stuff" whilst there.  Buckets, spades, footballs, beach balls.  I remember my eldest having a tantrum one year because I had to leave a giant inflatable crocodile my husband had bought for the beach behind.  

The pictures of 5a always sadden me.  You would never think there were three little children staying there.  The photos are empty and lonely.  There was not even any make and do things from the crèche displayed.

I've just had my 7 year-old grandson to stay for a couple of days. From our outings, lots of "stuff" was lying around the house that had to be gathered up before his father arrived to collect him. There's also something that got left behind: a large floor puzzle of the human body is still on the lounge floor. This is what happens when small children are around a place for more than a day or so!

Hi annaesse - I had to laugh reading about the floor puzzle of the human body- we had several of the big ones with dinosaurs too and I was just wishing, now my daughter is getting old enough to be within five years of having her own children, that I'd kept those; they aren't cheap.

but presumably your grandson came to you  in a car, with a boot that could fit things for him, the holiday group came on a plane. My practice was to have them carry what they wanted in their little Thomas or Hello Kitty backpack and whatever could fit in could go, that's a carry- on. If I knew I was going somewhere there would be toys available I allowed myself to pack lightly.

They seem to have misread the weather and maybe did not have clothing that would permit days at the beach if it wasn't hot or at least warm and sunny. Cold wet kids on a damp blowy beach don't last long, before they want to go home.

Yes, grandson came in a car, but the floor puzzle was something that was waiting for him here. I always have something for 7 year-old and his 2 year-old brother. Younger lad loves Peppa Pig, so he got Peppa Pig dominoes!