The children who are so neglected they start school 'without even knowing their own name'

Personally, I think kids nowadays are not allowed to f*rt before someone screams they are being abused. Kids that are in violent homes and physically/sexually abused should be removed. But it is is to the stage that social services will remove kids on a what if. That is wrong.

As a parent, I will put my hands up and say I must have been not a perfect parent. I did not abuse my children but I gave them freedom to enjoy life without keeping them tied to my apron strings. In my day, if you did wrong, you knew the consequences, now kids threaten parents if you do this I will tell SS.

The copper if you got caught at doing something naughty gave you a swift clip around the ear in my day and frog marched you to your parents. Now he would be charged with abuse himself or be threatened by the parents.

There is a big difference now and too many things are lumped under abuse and too many children are taken into care for silly reasons. Claudia as for your comment about 40 years ago parents not knowing the dangers, well my parents definitely knew dangers of life, they learnt the hard way of bombs dropping on them. I do find that comment an insult to the generations before that have raised children perfectly well. But kids in my childhood were not wrapped in cotton wool and they were allowed to play and be free, not like it is today.

Kids got dirty, and please do not tell me we have more paedophiles now because I don't believe it. What we have is more information about them. The local copper walked the streets in those days, he knew the kids and he kept an eye on those that were unsavoury. In my day they were referred to "dirty old men" and you were told to keep away. We did because in my day we respected our parents not like some of the kids today. There is a lot of kids that show a lack of respect to parents and lack of discipline in children now.

As for making mistakes, well as I said I have yet to meet a perfect parent. Kids don't come with a handbook and you learn as you go along. You do the best and hope your best is good enough.

As for what the McCanns did, back in the 60's and 70's at Butlins this kind of childcare was considered the norm on holiday. Their child minding service was a person riding around on a bike listening at the doors and often you heard "will the parents in Chalet 333 return to their chalet as their children are crying". That is why parents went to Butlins, they could enjoy themselves in the evenings and the kids were entertained in the day.

I do not approve of the McCann childcare arrangements, but at the end of the day, they were never charged with anything, so it is over. If anyone is to blame for not bringing charges it is not the McCanns it is the Portuguese prosecutor for not laying charges. As my other half said, they got caught, they weren't the first and won't be the last, but they got away with it. Just like everyone that goes over the speed limit, they by putting their foot down could be endangering life but unless caught they get away with it time after time.

Sandi wrote:Personally, I think kids nowadays are not allowed to f*rt before someone screams they are being abused. Kids that are in violent homes and physically/sexually abused should be removed. But it is is to the stage that social services will remove kids on a what if. That is wrong.

As a parent, I will put my hands up and say I must have been not a perfect parent. I did not abuse my children but I gave them freedom to enjoy life without keeping them tied to my apron strings. In my day, if you did wrong, you knew the consequences, now kids threaten parents if you do this I will tell SS.

The copper if you got caught at doing something naughty gave you a swift clip around the ear in my day and frog marched you to your parents. Now he would be charged with abuse himself or be threatened by the parents.

There is a big difference now and too many things are lumped under abuse and too many children are taken into care for silly reasons. Claudia as for your comment about 40 years ago parents not knowing the dangers, well my parents definitely knew dangers of life, they learnt the hard way of bombs dropping on them. I do find that comment an insult to the generations before that have raised children perfectly well. But kids in my childhood were not wrapped in cotton wool and they were allowed to play and be free, not like it is today.

Kids got dirty, and please do not tell me we have more paedophiles now because I don't believe it. What we have is more information about them. The local copper walked the streets in those days, he knew the kids and he kept an eye on those that were unsavoury. In my day they were referred to "dirty old men" and you were told to keep away. We did because in my day we respected our parents not like some of the kids today. There is a lot lack of respect and lack of discipline in children now.

As for making mistakes, well as I said I have yet to meet a perfect parent. Kids don't come with a handbook and you learn as you go along. You do the best and hope your best is good enough.

As for what the McCanns did, back in the 60's and 70's at Butlins this kind of childcare was considered the norm on holiday. Their child minding service was a person riding around on a bike listening at the doors and often you heard "will the parents in Chalet 333 return to their chalet as their children are crying". That is why parents went to Butlins, they could enjoy themselves in the evenings and the kids were entertained in the day.

I do not approve of the McCann childcare arrangements, but at the end of the day, they were never charged with anything, so it is over. If anyone is to blame for not bringing charges it is not the McCanns it is the Portuguese prosecutor for not laying charges. As my other half said, they got caught, they weren't the first and won't be the last, but they got away with it. Just like everyone that goes over the speed limit, they by putting their foot down could be endangering life but unless caught they get away with it time after time.

If you want to distort my words, please go ahead.
It is you who says that in the 60's and 70's that kind of 'chilcare arrangement' was the norm. Now it isn't. That's is exactly what I meant. There must be a reason. How that turned to war and bombs and calling parents from other generations irresponsible, beats me. But go ahead if you wish so. Just know I won't be playing. If your intention is to twist my words, you'll have to do it without my cooperation. This is my first and last reply to you re this matter.

As for making mistakes, well as I said I have yet to meet a perfect parent. Kids don't come with a handbook and you learn as you go along. You do the best and hope your best is good enough.

except that a shower of DOCTORS with medical training would not have to have "learned as they went along". they would have recieved specific training on child care issues as part of their degrees. especially mr gerry who would have gotton even more childcare training as part of his former employments with both glasgow university and celtic fc

and then they have the chutzpah to try and tell the rest of us how to do it, that is the part that really sticks in my craw

Claudia79 wrote:

Because 40 years ago many people weren't so aware of the dangers. Although my grandmother who was born 1n 1900, worked in the fields and gave birth to 7 children took her children to the fields so she could always see them as she couldn't afford not to work.
They had the creche, though. And babysitters who could go the their apartments. They just didn't think it was worth it.
Just to be clear, I consider that leaving 3 under 4 year olds home alone, in any circumstance, is neglectful.
You're welcome.

Claudia I am not twisting your words, you posted that 40 years ago many people weren't so aware of the dangers. As for playing games, it you want to twist it to play the victim by all means, but I was only responding to what you posted in a previous post. It is an insult to older generations that have raised children, of course they knew the dangers.

What I was trying to say is that we have got too protective over children, we don't allow them the freedoms as we were allowed.

Times change, things change, but sometimes things do change for the worse and not better.

Sandi wrote:Personally, I think kids nowadays are not allowed to f*rt before someone screams they are being abused. Kids that are in violent homes and physically/sexually abused should be removed. But it is is to the stage that social services will remove kids on a what if. That is wrong.

As a parent, I will put my hands up and say I must have been not a perfect parent. I did not abuse my children but I gave them freedom to enjoy life without keeping them tied to my apron strings. In my day, if you did wrong, you knew the consequences, now kids threaten parents if you do this I will tell SS.

The copper if you got caught at doing something naughty gave you a swift clip around the ear in my day and frog marched you to your parents. Now he would be charged with abuse himself or be threatened by the parents.

There is a big difference now and too many things are lumped under abuse and too many children are taken into care for silly reasons. Claudia as for your comment about 40 years ago parents not knowing the dangers, well my parents definitely knew dangers of life, they learnt the hard way of bombs dropping on them. I do find that comment an insult to the generations before that have raised children perfectly well. But kids in my childhood were not wrapped in cotton wool and they were allowed to play and be free, not like it is today.

Kids got dirty, and please do not tell me we have more paedophiles now because I don't believe it. What we have is more information about them. The local copper walked the streets in those days, he knew the kids and he kept an eye on those that were unsavoury. In my day they were referred to "dirty old men" and you were told to keep away. We did because in my day we respected our parents not like some of the kids today. There is a lot of kids that show a lack of respect to parents and lack of discipline in children now.

As for making mistakes, well as I said I have yet to meet a perfect parent. Kids don't come with a handbook and you learn as you go along. You do the best and hope your best is good enough.

As for what the McCanns did, back in the 60's and 70's at Butlins this kind of childcare was considered the norm on holiday. Their child minding service was a person riding around on a bike listening at the doors and often you heard "will the parents in Chalet 333 return to their chalet as their children are crying". That is why parents went to Butlins, they could enjoy themselves in the evenings and the kids were entertained in the day.

I do not approve of the McCann childcare arrangements, but at the end of the day, they were never charged with anything, so it is over. If anyone is to blame for not bringing charges it is not the McCanns it is the Portuguese prosecutor for not laying charges. As my other half said, they got caught, they weren't the first and won't be the last, but they got away with it. Just like everyone that goes over the speed limit, they by putting their foot down could be endangering life but unless caught they get away with it time after time.

A very good post Sandi.

Sometimes they didnt know the dangers years ago though. An ancestor of mine slept in her bed with her baby and rolled over and suffocated it. In the inquest it was deemed her fault, she suffocated it. I bet she never put a baby in her bed again. We are all told not to put our babies to sleep on their front, but I always did it with mine, I didnt know then it could be a danger. Times change, rules change because we learn from our mistakes - That is why Butlins no longer offer a baby listening service.

TFG

Good post - highlighting the fact that although we make progress in lots of areas, some children and families appear to be going backwards. We all know of, or can relate instances where a "type of neglect" has happened in the past.

As has been said we make progress and the laws change appropriately.

However, the line has already been drawn and what the McCanns' practised in PDL was already obsolete as far as MW was concerned - as far as the OC at any rate. I have read somewhere that they did not offer this service as they deemed it unsafe. So whichever way it is presented by the McCanns it was and is neglect. We have discussed this before on a thread and the overriding opinion of the NSPCC was that no children should be left alone.

As has been stated - these were Doctors who would have specific training about neglect of children and parents responsibility for them (which IMO makes what they practised even worse) - so why on earth did they think they were being responsible. The result of their behaviour is that Madeleine is no longer with them.

As regards the twins - I agree that keeping Madeleine as a 'presence' - a sister who is no longer with them is reasonable but I think that too much information (someone/monster has taken her away) could be quite scary for a child. It may cause nightmares.

Did/do the the McCanns neglect their children - yes - their actions speak volumes.

My family used to holiday at Butlins and I can remember hearing children crying and screaming in chalets and parents being repeatedly called to go back to their chalet - obviously they often didn't bother as there could be several calls for the same parents.

Imo it was wrong then and it's wrong now. I hated hearing those children crying even tho I was only in my early teens and knew nothing about childcare.

I would agree Antoinette anyone leaving young children alone imo are not
fit parents to look after those children.

This is an interesting read, it seems that baby listening services are still an option nowadays......scroll down the page for info on it.

http://www.babycentre.co.uk/baby/travel/hotels/

Sandi wrote:Personally, I think kids nowadays are not allowed to f*rt before someone screams they are being abused. Kids that are in violent homes and physically/sexually abused should be removed. But it is is to the stage that social services will remove kids on a what if. That is wrong.

As a parent, I will put my hands up and say I must have been not a perfect parent. I did not abuse my children but I gave them freedom to enjoy life without keeping them tied to my apron strings. In my day, if you did wrong, you knew the consequences, now kids threaten parents if you do this I will tell SS.

The copper if you got caught at doing something naughty gave you a swift clip around the ear in my day and frog marched you to your parents. Now he would be charged with abuse himself or be threatened by the parents.

There is a big difference now and too many things are lumped under abuse and too many children are taken into care for silly reasons. Claudia as for your comment about 40 years ago parents not knowing the dangers, well my parents definitely knew dangers of life, they learnt the hard way of bombs dropping on them. I do find that comment an insult to the generations before that have raised children perfectly well. But kids in my childhood were not wrapped in cotton wool and they were allowed to play and be free, not like it is today.

Kids got dirty, and please do not tell me we have more paedophiles now because I don't believe it. What we have is more information about them. The local copper walked the streets in those days, he knew the kids and he kept an eye on those that were unsavoury. In my day they were referred to "dirty old men" and you were told to keep away. We did because in my day we respected our parents not like some of the kids today. There is a lot of kids that show a lack of respect to parents and lack of discipline in children now.

As for making mistakes, well as I said I have yet to meet a perfect parent. Kids don't come with a handbook and you learn as you go along. You do the best and hope your best is good enough.

As for what the McCanns did, back in the 60's and 70's at Butlins this kind of childcare was considered the norm on holiday. Their child minding service was a person riding around on a bike listening at the doors and often you heard "will the parents in Chalet 333 return to their chalet as their children are crying". That is why parents went to Butlins, they could enjoy themselves in the evenings and the kids were entertained in the day.

I do not approve of the McCann childcare arrangements, but at the end of the day, they were never charged with anything, so it is over. If anyone is to blame for not bringing charges it is not the McCanns it is the Portuguese prosecutor for not laying charges. As my other half said, they got caught, they weren't the first and won't be the last, but they got away with it. Just like everyone that goes over the speed limit, they by putting their foot down could be endangering life but unless caught they get away with it time after time.

Is it over Sandi? How do you know that? What if the WoC child were found alive? What if she was found, still a minor and had been held by paedophiles for 4, 5, 6, 7 etc years? What would happen when she returned to the UK? Would UK law then apply? Would the legal rights of the child apply? Would the WoC child be returned to the parents who neglected her on holiday?

sunflower wrote:This is an interesting read, it seems that baby listening services are still an option nowadays......scroll down the page for info on it.

http://www.babycentre.co.uk/baby/travel/hotels/

They sure are, and pathetically this so called baby centre tells people that is an option and doesn't warn that it is extremely dangerous.

I note this:
Many hotels welcome babies and toddlers, so you don't necessarily need to choose one that advertises itself as "baby-friendly". However generally speaking, the more you pay for a hotel, the better the service will be for both you and your children.

So, go ahead travellers, pay top dollar for "good" service like baby listening. Maybe your baby will still be there and okay when you return.

Or you could go for the very HEIGHT of child friendliness and actually manage to find a restaurant that allows your children into the dining room later into the dinner hour?

What century is this lot living in?

thankfully we know of numerous cases which are solved years and years after the event,
so imo there is no way that I personally think this case could be described as being over.

widowan wrote:

sunflower wrote:This is an interesting read, it seems that baby listening services are still an option nowadays......scroll down the page for info on it.

http://www.babycentre.co.uk/baby/travel/hotels/

They sure are, and pathetically this so called baby centre tells people that is an option and doesn't warn that it is extremely dangerous.

I note this:
Many hotels welcome babies and toddlers, so you don't necessarily need to choose one that advertises itself as "baby-friendly". However generally speaking, the more you pay for a hotel, the better the service will be for both you and your children.

So, go ahead travellers, pay top dollar for "good" service like baby listening. Maybe your baby will still be there and okay when you return.

Or you could go for the very HEIGHT of child friendliness and actually manage to find a restaurant that allows your children into the dining room later into the dinner hour?

What century is this lot living in?

I was quite shocked when I googled it, so many places seem to offer it and many sites dedicated to giving advice for parents on holiday recommend it.

zodiac wrote:

Sandi wrote:Personally, I think kids nowadays are not allowed to f*rt before someone screams they are being abused. Kids that are in violent homes and physically/sexually abused should be removed. But it is is to the stage that social services will remove kids on a what if. That is wrong.

As a parent, I will put my hands up and say I must have been not a perfect parent. I did not abuse my children but I gave them freedom to enjoy life without keeping them tied to my apron strings. In my day, if you did wrong, you knew the consequences, now kids threaten parents if you do this I will tell SS.

The copper if you got caught at doing something naughty gave you a swift clip around the ear in my day and frog marched you to your parents. Now he would be charged with abuse himself or be threatened by the parents.

There is a big difference now and too many things are lumped under abuse and too many children are taken into care for silly reasons. Claudia as for your comment about 40 years ago parents not knowing the dangers, well my parents definitely knew dangers of life, they learnt the hard way of bombs dropping on them. I do find that comment an insult to the generations before that have raised children perfectly well. But kids in my childhood were not wrapped in cotton wool and they were allowed to play and be free, not like it is today.

Kids got dirty, and please do not tell me we have more paedophiles now because I don't believe it. What we have is more information about them. The local copper walked the streets in those days, he knew the kids and he kept an eye on those that were unsavoury. In my day they were referred to "dirty old men" and you were told to keep away. We did because in my day we respected our parents not like some of the kids today. There is a lot of kids that show a lack of respect to parents and lack of discipline in children now.

As for making mistakes, well as I said I have yet to meet a perfect parent. Kids don't come with a handbook and you learn as you go along. You do the best and hope your best is good enough.

As for what the McCanns did, back in the 60's and 70's at Butlins this kind of childcare was considered the norm on holiday. Their child minding service was a person riding around on a bike listening at the doors and often you heard "will the parents in Chalet 333 return to their chalet as their children are crying". That is why parents went to Butlins, they could enjoy themselves in the evenings and the kids were entertained in the day.

I do not approve of the McCann childcare arrangements, but at the end of the day, they were never charged with anything, so it is over. If anyone is to blame for not bringing charges it is not the McCanns it is the Portuguese prosecutor for not laying charges. As my other half said, they got caught, they weren't the first and won't be the last, but they got away with it. Just like everyone that goes over the speed limit, they by putting their foot down could be endangering life but unless caught they get away with it time after time.

Is it over Sandi? How do you know that? What if the WoC child were found alive? What if she was found, still a minor and had been held by paedophiles for 4, 5, 6, 7 etc years? What would happen when she returned to the UK? Would UK law then apply? Would the legal rights of the child apply? Would the WoC child be returned to the parents who neglected her on holiday?

Good point. WOuld McCanns even have MM made a WoC if they thought there was any chance of her being alive. I'm not sure what it got them - protection for her records or for them somehow is what I imagine - but as she now IS a Ward of the Court and was found by a pedophile I think what the parents would like is for that person to be made the sole criminal in this case and for the neglect to be brushed over. How it'd actually be handled by law is something else but I'm trying to imagine Clarence out there and the FUROR of media about "Little Girl Found" and then the parents, finally having their daughter back from this horrible pervert, now being charged with neglect. I can't see it. It woudl be all about how they'd been doubly wronged by the perp, by the media and internet nutters and now triply wronged by SS for stepping in on the neglect. I would put good money on it being over from the neglect charges side.

if MM were found to have been killed it might be slightly different as the parents would still come into the frame although 5-10 years after wards there would have to be good physical evidence that they did it. even so the howl would go up from their supporters, they've suffered enough...

sunflower wrote:

widowan wrote:

sunflower wrote:This is an interesting read, it seems that baby listening services are still an option nowadays......scroll down the page for info on it.

http://www.babycentre.co.uk/baby/travel/hotels/

They sure are, and pathetically this so called baby centre tells people that is an option and doesn't warn that it is extremely dangerous.

I note this:
Many hotels welcome babies and toddlers, so you don't necessarily need to choose one that advertises itself as "baby-friendly". However generally speaking, the more you pay for a hotel, the better the service will be for both you and your children.

So, go ahead travellers, pay top dollar for "good" service like baby listening. Maybe your baby will still be there and okay when you return.

Or you could go for the very HEIGHT of child friendliness and actually manage to find a restaurant that allows your children into the dining room later into the dinner hour?

What century is this lot living in?

I was quite shocked when I googled it, so many places seem to offer it and many sites dedicated to giving advice for parents on holiday recommend it.

it is shocking, possibly by BABY they mean infant who cannot get out of his cot, but I had a cousin who almost died, upstairs in her cot when she got a blanket wrapped around her neck. I went in to look at the baby (wasn't supposed to but I couldn't wait to see her, so I snuck in) and if I had not done so they'd probably have waited to hear her cry - and allowed to her suffocate thinking "how nice, she's taking a nice long nap".

I have never forgotten that blue face with snot running over it and feel strongly that CHECKING needs to be done in person and visually not only listening. Even putting your hand on their chest, sometimes they seem so still you aren't sure what's going on. Although I am more paranoid than many and certainly more so than people who would use this type of service and find that in any way "child friendly" - let's call it what it is, PARENT friendly, for parents who want to go off and leave the child in the room.