McCanns Lawyer says police must take position on the lead provided by S.A Businessman

Claudia79 wrote:

duncanmac wrote:

The PJ was told to investigate an abduction, not a missing child case.

Claudia, can you please expand on this statement.Who advised the PJ to do this, they are professional police officers not a coffee shop as you have told me in the past.

I thought you had followed this case closely. The Ambassador rang the Head of the PJ to tell him there was an English girls' abduction to investigate. This happened only hours after the Police was called to the scene. The men on the filed were not good boys, though.

Yes, Claudia, I have been following the case closely and I am aware of the phone call from the British Ambassador, but you know full well that the abduction story eminated from GM and your ever so professional PJ fell for it. To say they followed the abduction story because someone told them to is beyond belief.

I think everyone fell for it - you had 9 witnesses who saw the parents at the table and one who saw the abduction go down.

The PJ didn't fall for it for long, but Amaral had said they didn't want the parents tipped off that they were actually investigating THEM lest they lawyer up and go silent.

What would they have done had the PJ clapped them in irons the moment they suspected something was not right with the story (which was about one or two days into it IIRC)? We probably wouldn't have the same amount of evidence we now have because McCanns showed that when it came to finding MM vs protecting their own skins, they were more inclined to do the latter...

duncanmac wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:

duncanmac wrote:

The PJ was told to investigate an abduction, not a missing child case.

Claudia, can you please expand on this statement.Who advised the PJ to do this, they are professional police officers not a coffee shop as you have told me in the past.

I thought you had followed this case closely. The Ambassador rang the Head of the PJ to tell him there was an English girls' abduction to investigate. This happened only hours after the Police was called to the scene. The men on the filed were not good boys, though.

Yes, Claudia, I have been following the case closely and I am aware of the phone call from the British Ambassador, but you know full well that the abduction story eminated from GM and your ever so professional PJ fell for it. To say they followed the abduction story because someone told them to is beyond belief.

You should read more about this case. I'm not saying they followed it because they were told. I'm saying they were told to investigate an abduction. Obviously, knowing what happened, that was not what happened. All lines of enquiry were followed. There's a document in the files with the date 4th of May if I'm not mistaken which clearly states "rapto???". That makes it quite clear that there were suspicions right away. In fact, I can tell you that apart from the early suspicions about all the Tapas 9 and their conflicting stories, the strongest theory from the men on the field was always walked and wandered and not abduction.

Begging the question: if she woke and wandered, then why would the parents stage the abduction by opening the window,
for the PJ to believe w&w scenario, how would they explain the open window? A 3 YO didn't do that. The parents must have.

Why?

would the McCanns really confuse the investigation just to make themselves look less guilty of neglect if they thought the child MIGHT HAVE woke and wandered? Clearly Amaral had some suspicions of that.

The only thing I can think of is that they did away with her body, or that they knew she was kidnapped because she was sedated & she could NOT have gotten out on her own. They would hardly have admitted that to the police, even though it could have helped Maddie, it would make them look bad.

It's easier for me to believe in an abduction than in a parent that would do those things. But then I am not a cop.

Date: 04th MAy. On the right, in handwriting "Rapto??" = "Abduction??"

With several ??? it does underline that they suspect it is NOT an abduction.

They were smart to keep all lines of inquiry open and not tip the parents off that they were doing so.

widowan wrote:With several ??? it does underline that they suspect it is NOT an abduction.

They were smart to keep all lines of inquiry open and not tip the parents off that they were doing so.

Exactly.

[quote]

widowan wrote:I think everyone fell for it -

The PJ didn't fall for it for long, but Amaral had said they didn't want the parents tipped off that they were actually investigating THEM lest they lawyer up and go silent.

What would they have done had the PJ clapped them in irons the moment they suspected something was not right with the story (which was about one or two days into it IIRC)?

[quote]Widowan, If you say the PJ suspected them after two days, then why were no covert observations set up.Let me get this right, the PJ suspected them but allowed them to transport a dead body around PDL. No I do not believe the PJ suspected them at all initially, in this country all nine would have been brought in for questioning as soon as their story did not add up. Trust me, questioned separately, someone would have cracked. The facts are that only two of the nine were made arguidos and interviewed separately on two seperate days, after the first arguido was able to go home and tell the second arguido the questions !!!!!!!

I do not agree that everyone fell for the abduction story. I knew it was Bull**** the moment I heard the two younger children had been left behind. The PJ did not get a result because they got their tactics wrong, blamimg it on political interference does not wash with me.

Claudia79 wrote:

widowan wrote:With several ??? it does underline that they suspect it is NOT an abduction.

They were smart to keep all lines of inquiry open and not tip the parents off that they were doing so.

Exactly.

How ?
The PJ did not get a result, how can you compliment the PJ tactics ?

duncanmac wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:

widowan wrote:With several ??? it does underline that they suspect it is NOT an abduction.

They were smart to keep all lines of inquiry open and not tip the parents off that they were doing so.

Exactly.

How ?
The PJ did not get a result, how can you compliment the PJ tactics ?

Where do you see, in my post, any compliment to any 'tactics'? You posted a lie saying the PJ fell for the abduction theory. I posted a document from the files proving that by the 4th of May the Police suspected an abduction hadn't happened.
Good thing the SY is now on the case, right? It will be solved in a couple of weeks I'm sure. The conclusions up until now seem promising. 'Madeleine is either alive or sadly dead'!

Speaking of falling for the abduction theory. Cough, cough

Dan Lobb: Do you believe she is still alive?

Redwood: Yes, I do.

Dan Lobb: Why?

Redwood: I believe she’s still alive because, at the beginning of this case…it’s a huge privilege for us at the Metropolitan Police to be part of this investigation…er, investigation review. Is that we came with a completely open mind.

We were untouched by anything that’s gone before, and, as part of that, two key elements of it is to go: 1 Madeleine is alive and the other is, sadly she’s not...and in relation to her being alive, yes, there is a real possibility that she’s alive.

Kate Garraway: So what are the things that make you think that…because I think you know we’re all clinging to the hope, aren’t we?

Dan Lobb: Yeah. I mean it’s kind of hard evidence but there is still going to be hope - as long as she’s not found dead

Redwood: Yes, I mean, you know, we have conducted a forensic analysis of the timeline, and there is clearly opportunity there - for Madeleine McCann to have been removed from that apartment alive - and it is our belief, as experienced investigators - on the evidence, that, um that you know, that that, that is as a criminal act - and that has been, you know, undertaken by by a stranger, and so from that - she’s… and there are other cases around the world, as you know where, many years later, people have been taken and been found alive.

So they were made suspects very early on but no covert observations set up.
Dead body transported all over PDL, GM disposes of a fridge,all whilst they were suspects and no one stops them to ask what they are doing ?

SY have not concluded their investigation yet, the PJ have, but still did not get a result, whilst the Macs walk this earth like they own it.

duncanmac wrote:So they were made suspects very early on but no covert observations set up.
Dead body transported all over PDL, GM disposes of a fridge,all whilst they were suspects and no one stops them to ask what they are doing ?

Who from the investigation team told you they thought a dead body was transported ALL OVER PDL and that Gerry disposed of a fridge? I advise you to separate the files from forum myths and then maybe we can discuss this case in a serious fashion.

duncanmac wrote:SY have not concluded their investigation yet, the PJ have, but still did not get a result, whilst the Macs walk this earth like they own it.

They are certainly going the right way according to Andy Redwood's words!

duncanmac wrote:SY have not concluded their investigation yet, the PJ have, but still did not get a result, whilst the Macs walk this earth like they own it.

Indeed - and I for one totally discount the stumbling performance by Redwood for a variety of reasons;

1. He actually didn't say anything that should be taken as cast in concrete

2. The remit of the Review (Not, ahem, Investigation ......!) was clear in respect of the stated fact that live progress reports would not be made

3. Even if some consider what was said during and after that unfortunate appearance on Panorama to be something to hang their hat on, it may not have been the whole truth (if at all), may have been diversionary/tactical and may in any case have been overtaken by events: FWIW, I just think AR is not good at Media and strongly suspect was reluctant to go on record at all, but was probably "advised" so to do.

I did not knock the PJ and I am most certainly not going to knock SY.

It's the outcome that matters, not what people think about the vague fluff during the process.

Claudia79 wrote:

duncanmac wrote:So they were made suspects very early on but no covert observations set up.
Dead body transported all over PDL, GM disposes of a fridge,all whilst they were suspects and no one stops them to ask what they are doing ?

Who from the investigation team told you they thought a dead body was transported ALL OVER PDL and that Gerry disposed of a fridge? I advise you to separate the files from forum myths and then maybe we can discuss this case in a serious fashion.

Er, it was your hero, Mr Amaral who said the body had been frozen and transported in a car, not me, its in his documentary actually, if you care to watch it.

duncanmac wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:

duncanmac wrote:So they were made suspects very early on but no covert observations set up.
Dead body transported all over PDL, GM disposes of a fridge,all whilst they were suspects and no one stops them to ask what they are doing ?

Who from the investigation team told you they thought a dead body was transported ALL OVER PDL and that Gerry disposed of a fridge? I advise you to separate the files from forum myths and then maybe we can discuss this case in a serious fashion.

Er, it was your hero, Mr Amaral who said the body had been frozen and transported in a car, not me, its in his documentary actually, if you care to watch it.

And he stated it as fact? And he stated that Gerry had disposed of a fridge? Or are those more lies from you? Get me something from the files which was what I did with you.
My only heroes are my parents. You know nothing about me so keep those comments to yourself.
P.S: I know a bit more about Mr Amaral's thoughts about this than you do.

Very unpatriotic of me I know, but I have absolutely no faith that SY will find anything other than what the PJ already have. I really don't buy the fact that Deadwood gave the statement which clearly supported abduction to be something to lull the McCanns into a false sense of security. Tbey're already so lulled that they're practically horizontal with relaxation.

duncanmac wrote:So they were made suspects very early on but no covert observations set up.
Dead body transported all over PDL, GM disposes of a fridge,all whilst they were suspects and no one stops them to ask what they are doing ?

Government interference prevented the PJ from doing what they wanted to do. If you'd followed this case from day one, as I and many other posters have, you would have heard Gerry McCann tell the media, the morning after Madeleine disappeared, that he had telephoned Gordon Brown and asked him for help. Two Special Envoys who were based in Portugal, were ordered to go the McCanns immediately and to remain by their sides

If you go into the PJ files, you will be able to read a report by Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida, who if I'm not mistaken took over from Goncalo Amaral, when he was ousted from his post, the day after Gordon Brown spoke to the Portuguese Prime Minister Jose Socrates. There is also information in the PJ files that shows that the British Government interfered with the case.

The PJ asked for Madeleine's health records and other documents, that would have helped them in the investigation, but they were refused.

Why were the PJ refused these documents? Why were the McCanns protected from day one, when they were suspected of being more involved with Madeleine's disappearance, than neglect?

duncanmac wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:

widowan wrote:With several ??? it does underline that they suspect it is NOT an abduction.

They were smart to keep all lines of inquiry open and not tip the parents off that they were doing so.

Exactly.

How ?
The PJ did not get a result, how can you compliment the PJ tactics ?

Instead of slagging off the PJ, read the PJ files. The PJ wanted to bring charges against the McCanns.

The PJ didn't fall for the abduction story at all. The McCanns began to lie as soon as the Portuguese police arrived at their apartment to investigate Madeleine's disappearance. This is what Mark Williamx-Thomas, a child protection expert, who is also a criminologist and a former police officer, told the media.

First of all, Mr William-Thomas said he flew over to PDL, to offer his support to the McCanns, but they refused his support. He said he discovered that the McCanns had told the police that the shutter was jemmied. The McCanns said that the abductor, entered the apartment through the jemmied shutter, then exited the same way carrying Madeleine.

The McCanns were asked if their apartment was secured when they went out and they said yes. The shutter was examined and found to be intact and the McCanns were asked once again if their apartment was secured, and they said no. Mr William Thomas said the police decided that Madeleine most probably had walked out of the apartment and they would be changing the search from an abducted child, to a missing child. Mr William Thomas said the McCanns agreed that it could have been possible for Madeleine to have walked out of their apartment.

Goncalo Amaral also said, that as soon as the McCanns began to lie to the police, the police suspected that the story was not as the McCanns had said it was.

When the police arrived at the McCanns apartment, they had made all their important phone calls, including the one to Gordon Brown. This is only my opinion, but I believe that the PJ's hands were tied, once Gordon Brown had been contacted and this is why the McCanns were not arrested on the spot. They had already told the PJ that their children were left unsupervised, which was a crime in Portugal. I believe if Gordon Brown hadn't become involved so quickly, the McCanns would have been arrested for what they admitted to.

However I don't know Goncalo Amaral and he would be the only one to say if this was so.

Kathybelle, I have followed this case from day one, but it does not take up all my life like some.
You suggest I read the files, have you ?
Rebello took over from Amaral as a matter of fact, and you say GM phoned Gordon Brown the day after Madeleine disappeared.
Why would he do that ?
Tony Blair was Prime Minister when Madeleine disappeared and I think you will find it was him he spoke to not Gordon Brown.
I believe that the Macs are still free due to PJ errors and I will not change my view.

duncanmac wrote:Kathybelle, I have followed this case from day one, but it does not take up all my life like some.
You suggest I read the files, have you ?
Rebello took over from Amaral as a matter of fact, and you say GM phoned Gordon Brown the day after Madeleine disappeared.
Why would he do that ?
Tony Blair was Prime Minister when Madeleine disappeared and I think you will find it was him he spoke to not Gordon Brown.
I believe that the Macs are still free due to PJ errors and I will not change my view.

If you read my post again, I said if I'm not mistaken C.I. Almeida, took over from Goncalo Amaral. Regarding Gordon Brown, I know Tony Blair was the Prime Minister at the time of Madeleine's disappearance, because Gordon Brown was the Chancellor of the Exchequer, however when Brown went over to speak to Socrates, he was the Prime Minister.

If you had really followed the case from day one, you would have heard Gerry McCann say, he phoned Gordon Brown and Gordon Brown told him he could speak to him any time he wanted to, whether it was day or night.

Why did Gerry McCann phone Gordon Brown? His sister Philomena was asked the same question and she said that Gordon Brown is an old family friend.

I have no problem with your views about the PJ and their errors, I just have a problem with some of the things you are stating, which are different from what is in the PJ files. Regarding the PJ and their errors, Goncalo Amaral admitted that mistakes were made and the biggest mistake of all in my opinion, was not arresting the McCanns as soon as they told the police they had left their children unsupervised. I've already given my reasons for stating this, but only Goncalo Amaral can say if what I believe is true.

[quote="duncanmac"][quote]

widowan wrote:I think everyone fell for it -

The PJ didn't fall for it for long, but Amaral had said they didn't want the parents tipped off that they were actually investigating THEM lest they lawyer up and go silent.

What would they have done had the PJ clapped them in irons the moment they suspected something was not right with the story (which was about one or two days into it IIRC)?

Widowan, If you say the PJ suspected them after two days, then why were no covert observations set up.Let me get this right, the PJ suspected them but allowed them to transport a dead body around PDL. No I do not believe the PJ suspected them at all initially, in this country all nine would have been brought in for questioning as soon as their story did not add up. Trust me, questioned separately, someone would have cracked. The facts are that only two of the nine were made arguidos and interviewed separately on two seperate days, after the first arguido was able to go home and tell the second arguido the questions !!!!!!!

I do not agree that everyone fell for the abduction story. I knew it was Bull**** the moment I heard the two younger children had been left behind. The PJ did not get a result because they got their tactics wrong, blamimg it on political interference does not wash with me.

I don't blame it all on political interference, I think it was a strategic decision and looking at the "abduction???" comment on May 4 tells me they weren't buying it either but had to take a certain tack to get there.

And in the case where all 9 were brought in and grilled separately, that would be the end of the story unless you filed charges, you arrest someone with enough evidence to show they committed a crime, or you let them go. People who have killed their kids or spouses walk free for years until the police have enough evidence.

In the US, they bring someone in and start asking questions that makes it obvious the person is suspected of something - and if that person is intelligent, for example doctors and lawyers who have already had legal advice, they would hire the best defense attorney they could find and refuse to say another word which in fact was what Kate did when finally questioned.

Had they done that initially they would not have gotten Any further than that questioning.

Suspecting someone is lying is not to say you know who it is and that if you only lean on them they will crack. If you don't even speak the same language how hard can you lean? Say Oldfield, who changed his story to say he did NOT see all 3 kids, only the twins, did he lie when he said this because he realized that for Jane's sighting to be Maddie, she'd have had to be gone by the time he checked? Did he really see her, so therefore Jane's sighting could not have been MM being kidnapped or did he really not see her the first time and as he went back through his memory of the night, realized wow, I "checked" them but didn't really do a good job visually looking at each one, Maddie's bed might have been empty and that was just covers humped up I saw, I ASSUMED I sort of saw the twins because they were still there at ten PM.

My mom is like you, she instantly suspected the parents, which is odd. I did not. I thought they were out on the booze and their child taken and they were guilty and humiliated and wrong, of course, to have done that but there but for the grace of God go I, if they were stupid and took their eye off the ball... we have all done THAT althoguh we haven't all left out toddlers to go out to dinner.

But at that time, we (in US) did not even know they were on holiday with 7 others, all of whom would alibi them for the time of the abduction, and one of whom actually witnessed someone taking the child away. Surely that counts for something.

Yes, when the stories did not add up you would requestion and if you had the skills and tools to do so you'd do so in English and with a tape recorder if not a camera and recording device. But those kind of mistakes or omissions happen in all cases.

The notion that you could go in there and shake the truth out of these people is a nice one and one we've all considered, like the family of any victim you think they should just tie them to the chair and torment them til they confess but that is not how civilized countries do things. They'd have had to be leaning hard on these people that they couldn't have checked as often or as well as they said. When a child may have been abducted, that's pretty tough line of questioning.

The fact Amaral did get removed from the case tells us something. he was the one pursuing the parents -did-it line of investigation and felt he was on to something. Obviously he noted the discrepancies in the time line and the obvious problem presented when jane saw the abductor at 915 and Matt checked maddie at 930. And the window open - doors unlocked problem. I don't think he failed to do more in depth questioning at that time by accident - I think it was strategic, but we can differ.

Perhaps they did not have the resources to put a tail on the parents 24-7 for 6 months. That is expensive. Did UK cops put a tail on the mother of that missing girl who turned up in some guy's apt? Millie Fowler?