Police bust-up sparks fear for Madeleine McCann investigation (Daily Star)

Not Born Yesterday wrote:I'm glad you're back, David - I think we're singing from the same hymn sheet as they say!

Have you seen the independent report on the fund? http://www.mccannfiles.com/id405.html

Interestingly, there hasn't been as far as I know the usual torrent of childish abuse from McCann supporters whenever something detrimental is published.

Thank you. That is a very interesting report, and I imagine supporters will have a problem arguing with it because it makes some very valid and clear issues.

T4two wrote:The "accident" theory is the most acceptable scenario for the average sceptical observer - every other possibility being too horrific to even contemplate, let alone discuss on an open forum. Nonetheless, "accident" remains just that - a theory. To borrow a quote which has been done to death by every British tom dick and harry from the media and PR world allbeit in a different context, "there is not a shred of evidence to support it."

That is a very good point. I think this is also why 'neglect' comments surprise me here, because I think members here will know much more than an average observer.

Iris wrote:But somebody is trying to tell us something.

Who released the bus video, showing up Mister Gerry for the nasty wee ned he really is?
Who released the plane video, showing poor wee Maddie cutting her shin and not a soul rushing to help?
Why did Justine leave a pile of papers under a sofa in the villa, before collecting her P45 and departing on bad terms?
What was in those papers anyway?

Good points. I did not know about the papers (I will look for information about this). The videos are very important because recording and keeping these were done before the event.

In reply to Iris, the infamous video with charmless Gerry was released by the McCanns themselves at the end of May 2007.
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6698737.stm

Why his comment was left on is anyone's guess!

The video itself may no longer be available on this link; it isn't for me anyway.

at the same time as they were trying to portray themselves as the perfect couple?  makes no sense :(

I remain somewhat sceptical about the 'pre-planning'.

If there was pre planning then its just about the most incompetent bit of work you could possibly imagine,although if this is the case then it has actually worked,so far !

Far more likely the total cock up theory where this self indulgent group regularly go out at night and leave their kids alone,perhaps some sedated to keep them quiet.

And the 'bond' that ties them all together when faced with a dead/dying child behind the sofa.Maybe quite simple,just could have happened to any of them.Throw in the recreational use of certain substances perhaps,who knows.

I think many ,if not most of us on here,continue to talk 'neglect' because these quite simply are not caring parents behaving in a responsible way by any stretch of the imagination and the few facts that can be verified do suggest the parents regularly left their kids alone.

That said i have not dismissed the possibility completely that something else happened.

I would be very interested how the evidence of the dogs fits in with those ideas of 'pre-planning' as if you go down that route then by definition i assume it would mean that must have been planted ?

I have entertained that theory before Lioned, and I haven't ruled it out completely.

Madeleine is alive and well and living with relatives.  Kate and Gerry aren't acting as a couple grieving for the loss of their child, because they know bloody fine where she is, and that she's okay.  Hence the smiles, the not bothering to look, all their energy concentrated on setting up companies and shops, the paid-for false sightings, the keeping the twins up to speed so that they will know her when she does come back, the sheer smug arrogance of knowing that they have fooled everybody and are still getting away with it.

Having said that, I don't believe that Eddie and Keela were wrong.  They did find cadaverine and blood - planted, obviously.  But by whom?

Gerry would have the knowledge and means to do it, but I don't think he did.  The genuine shock on his face after leaving Portimao nick showed that something happened in there that wasn't in the master plan.  Something swept in on the outside rail that wasn't part of the Wider Agenda.  Did the police tell him about the cadaverine and blood?  He certainly didn't see that one coming.  

Cue all the dissing the dogs trolling, and tripe in Kate's book of filth and lies.  And do we see them asking to know who did die in 5A?  No, we do not!

Sadly, I think someone in the PJ may have planted it, meaning well, to try and force a confession.  Except it didn't work, and the twisters are still running about loose.  Only in a perverse sort of way, now everyone believes Madeleine is dead, when quite possibly she isn't.  So if they now produce her out of thin air, everyone will know that it was a scam from the very beginning.  Maybe that's why they look so bloody miserable now.

Iris wrote:I have entertained that theory before Lioned, and I haven't ruled it out completely.

Madeleine is alive and well and living with relatives.  Kate and Gerry aren't acting as a couple grieving for the loss of their child, because they know bloody fine where she is, and that she's okay.  Hence the smiles, the not bothering to look, all their energy concentrated on setting up companies and shops, the paid-for false sightings, the keeping the twins up to speed so that they will know her when she does come back, the sheer smug arrogance of knowing that they have fooled everybody and are still getting away with it.

Having said that, I don't believe that Eddie and Keela were wrong.  They did find cadaverine and blood - planted, obviously.  But by whom?

Gerry would have the knowledge and means to do it, but I don't think he did.  The genuine shock on his face after leaving Portimao nick showed that something happened in there that wasn't in the master plan.  Something swept in on the outside rail that wasn't part of the Wider Agenda.  Did the police tell him about the cadaverine and blood?  He certainly didn't see that one coming.  

Cue all the dissing the dogs trolling, and tripe in Kate's book of filth and lies.  And do we see them asking to know who did die in 5A?  No, we do not!

Sadly, I think someone in the PJ may have planted it, meaning well, to try and force a confession.  Except it didn't work, and the twisters are still running about loose.  Only in a perverse sort of way, now everyone believes Madeleine is dead, when quite possibly she isn't.  So if they now produce her out of thin air, everyone will know that it was a scam from the very beginning.  Maybe that's why they look so bloody miserable now.

Sorry, I don't buy that the PJ planted scent of any kind. How and why would they. Did one of them walk around with something with cadaverine smell on it? The first officers on the scene were two GNR which are not PJ so that would mean that GNR officers are issued with cadaverine smell just in case it is needed? No. The Mccanns are involved in this right up to their scrawny necks.

I can't imagine the PJ planting anything, what would be the point? If they are as corrupt and wanted to solve the case quickly as the British press has implied, then why not Murat, he would have been perfect!

My thinking tends to followe yours, lioned...

Iris wrote:I have entertained that theory before Lioned, and I haven't ruled it out completely.

Madeleine is alive and well and living with relatives.  Kate and Gerry aren't acting as a couple grieving for the loss of their child, because they know bloody fine where she is, and that she's okay.  Hence the smiles, the not bothering to look, all their energy concentrated on setting up companies and shops, the paid-for false sightings, the keeping the twins up to speed so that they will know her when she does come back, the sheer smug arrogance of knowing that they have fooled everybody and are still getting away with it.

Having said that, I don't believe that Eddie and Keela were wrong.  They did find cadaverine and blood - planted, obviously.  But by whom?

Gerry would have the knowledge and means to do it, but I don't think he did.  The genuine shock on his face after leaving Portimao nick showed that something happened in there that wasn't in the master plan.  Something swept in on the outside rail that wasn't part of the Wider Agenda.  Did the police tell him about the cadaverine and blood?  He certainly didn't see that one coming.  

Cue all the dissing the dogs trolling, and tripe in Kate's book of filth and lies.  And do we see them asking to know who did die in 5A?  No, we do not!

Sadly, I think someone in the PJ may have planted it, meaning well, to try and force a confession.  Except it didn't work, and the twisters are still running about loose.  Only in a perverse sort of way, now everyone believes Madeleine is dead, when quite possibly she isn't.  So if they now produce her out of thin air, everyone will know that it was a scam from the very beginning.  Maybe that's why they look so bloody miserable now.

Initially the parents did not challenge the dogs' findings but through their mouthpiece, family/friends and GM's blog, sought to explain them away with the soiled nappies, seabass and handling 6 dead bodies stories. At no time did they accuse the Portuguese police of planting cadaverine and blood.

Edited to add: How could one accuse the Portuguese of planting blood with 15 of Madeleine's markers - a feat requiring a genius I should have thought - especially as they didn't even have as much as a toothbrush to go on?

Yes. Who said when asked about the dogs 'it must have been planted' philomena or Kate's mum?

margaret wrote:Yes. Who said when asked about the dogs  'it must have been planted' philomena or Kate's mum?

According to this article, Kate's mother said any evidence must have been planted.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-495012/Kate-McCanns-mother-I-understand-children-left-alone.html

Speaking when the McCanns were made arguidos and it was claimed that DNA had been found, Madeleine's grandmother said: "This is a set-up. It must have been planted by the perpetrator."
She went on: "I know why this is happening - the police are trying to frame them for murder. If there is any evidence to implicate Kate and Gerry in any way then it has been planted."

margaret wrote:Yes. Who said when asked about the dogs  'it must have been planted' philomena or Kate's mum?

You're correct - I believe it was the fat lady or the grandmother - but in their loose cannon roles. It has never been the 'official' line. Why? Because most of them say it .... most criminals when faced with forensic evidence say that it must have been planted. It's a line of argument that can so easily be refuted that lawyers tend to avoid using it.

AnnaEsse wrote:

margaret wrote:Yes. Who said when asked about the dogs  'it must have been planted' philomena or Kate's mum?

According to this article, Kate's mother said any evidence must have been planted.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-495012/Kate-McCanns-mother-I-understand-children-left-alone.html

Speaking when the McCanns were made arguidos and it was claimed that DNA had been found, Madeleine's grandmother said: "This is a set-up. It must have been planted by the perpetrator."
She went on: "I know why this is happening - the police are trying to frame them for murder. If there is any evidence to implicate Kate and Gerry in any way then it has been planted."

And did Ma Healy ever enlighten us as to a) where the perp got the blood and cadaverine or b) why a perp would abduct a dead body. If the cadaverine was a plant by a rogue PJ officer (he wouldn't be the first copper guilty of planting evidence btw) then the blood really could have been from a nosebleed or something.
I know its a slim possibility but it is a theory I have considered and it does explain away quite a lot.

I think it's time to introduce Kate's charmless mother to Stephen Birch - after all, he believes too that the police framed the McCanns!

AnnaEsse wrote:

I wonder just how Kate explained to her mum why she refused to answer those questions. Mrs. Healy seems to think that Kate was willing to answer anything put to her.
What must she think now?
I can't imagine what must go through this woman's head. I pity her.

Iris wrote:I have entertained that theory before Lioned, and I haven't ruled it out completely.

Madeleine is alive and well and living with relatives.  Kate and Gerry aren't acting as a couple grieving for the loss of their child, because they know bloody fine where she is, and that she's okay.  Hence the smiles, the not bothering to look, all their energy concentrated on setting up companies and shops, the paid-for false sightings, the keeping the twins up to speed so that they will know her when she does come back, the sheer smug arrogance of knowing that they have fooled everybody and are still getting away with it.

Having said that, I don't believe that Eddie and Keela were wrong.  They did find cadaverine and blood - planted, obviously.  But by whom?

Gerry would have the knowledge and means to do it, but I don't think he did.  The genuine shock on his face after leaving Portimao nick showed that something happened in there that wasn't in the master plan.  Something swept in on the outside rail that wasn't part of the Wider Agenda.  Did the police tell him about the cadaverine and blood?  He certainly didn't see that one coming.  

Cue all the dissing the dogs trolling, and tripe in Kate's book of filth and lies.  And do we see them asking to know who did die in 5A?  No, we do not!

Sadly, I think someone in the PJ may have planted it, meaning well, to try and force a confession.  Except it didn't work, and the twisters are still running about loose.  Only in a perverse sort of way, now everyone believes Madeleine is dead, when quite possibly she isn't.  So if they now produce her out of thin air, everyone will know that it was a scam from the very beginning.  Maybe that's why they look so bloody miserable now.

The planted evidence theory certainly explains the hastily shelved case, the apparent disregard of the EVRD dog alerts and the current review/investigation headed by SY which is costing the taxpayer millions for just one missing child.

She is right on quite a few counts. She says Kate and Gerry were made arguidos for their own protection and so that they could have their lawyer present. It's a pity the pair were not questioned as simple witnesses. Witnesses are required to answer questions, arguidos are not... presumably because they might incriminate themselves? I too feel sorry for Mrs Healy. She has lost her eldest grandchild. The whole shebang must be awful for her.

Palmeras, I am curious as to your motivation. Like you, nobody on here knows for sure what happened to Madeleine. Most regular posters on this site have been concerned about this case from day one, and many of us have worked either directly, or tangentially in child protection. Many of us too, are retired from that kind of work. All kinds of views and theories have been expressed, based on detailed perusal of everything available to read online. There is no secure case for abduction any more than there is for accidental death in the appartment. Your statements make it seem that you despise the honest attempts of other online posters to consider all the ins an outs of this case. Do you claim some kind of insider information, and feel privileged thereby, or what, that you ridicule what many others write, sometimes in the manner of a sarcastic troll?

Every other cheap crook in the land when taken into custody claims he was fitted up, and that the police planted evidence against him. Moreover, when a child disappears in decidedly odd and iffy suspicious circumstances, so often its the 'a' word that comes out pat from those who saw him or her last.

T4two wrote:

Iris wrote:I have entertained that theory before Lioned, and I haven't ruled it out completely.

Madeleine is alive and well and living with relatives.  Kate and Gerry aren't acting as a couple grieving for the loss of their child, because they know bloody fine where she is, and that she's okay.  Hence the smiles, the not bothering to look, all their energy concentrated on setting up companies and shops, the paid-for false sightings, the keeping the twins up to speed so that they will know her when she does come back, the sheer smug arrogance of knowing that they have fooled everybody and are still getting away with it.

Having said that, I don't believe that Eddie and Keela were wrong.  They did find cadaverine and blood - planted, obviously.  But by whom?

Gerry would have the knowledge and means to do it, but I don't think he did.  The genuine shock on his face after leaving Portimao nick showed that something happened in there that wasn't in the master plan.  Something swept in on the outside rail that wasn't part of the Wider Agenda.  Did the police tell him about the cadaverine and blood?  He certainly didn't see that one coming.  

Cue all the dissing the dogs trolling, and tripe in Kate's book of filth and lies.  And do we see them asking to know who did die in 5A?  No, we do not!

Sadly, I think someone in the PJ may have planted it, meaning well, to try and force a confession.  Except it didn't work, and the twisters are still running about loose.  Only in a perverse sort of way, now everyone believes Madeleine is dead, when quite possibly she isn't.  So if they now produce her out of thin air, everyone will know that it was a scam from the very beginning.  Maybe that's why they look so bloody miserable now.

Initially the parents did not challenge the dogs' findings but through their mouthpiece, family/friends and GM's blog, sought to explain them away with the soiled nappies, seabass and handling 6 dead bodies stories. At no time did they accuse the Portuguese police of planting cadaverine and blood.

Edited to add: How could one accuse the Portuguese of planting blood with 15 of Madeleine's markers - a feat requiring a genius I should have thought - especially as they didn't even have as much as a toothbrush to go on?

I agree totally! I believe that the DNA will be re-evaluated by Scotland yard as it meets the standard of proof for the uk and USA. The idea that the pj planted evidence is the last ditch retort for anyone as guilty as sin.
It is strange that on the one hand they argue the pj are 'incompetent' yet on the other they are crediting the planting of cadervine all over! Including the hire car! Did they plant the picture of the tennis bag that nobody knows what happened to?

yes 15 out of 19 markers enough for a conviction -or ask awkward questions re the results - outside portugal - anything other than these awkward questions being asked must be deemed as a whitewash - eddie keela south yourshires highest paid snouts- and as for mr grimes are they going to ignore a policeman with such a high sucess rate mmmmmm

comperedna wrote:She is right on quite a few counts. She says Kate and Gerry were made arguidos for their own protection and so that they could have their lawyer present. It's a pity the pair were not questioned as simple witnesses. Witnesses are required to answer questions, arguidos are not... presumably because they might incriminate themselves? I too feel sorry for Mrs Healy. She has lost her eldest grandchild. The whole shebang must be awful for her.

I have no sympathy for her. She knows more than she is saying. And she still cannot let her little grandchild have a dignified burial.

That's a good post, comperedna, regarding the motivation of Palmeras16.
 
It's good that there are people here with differing opinions on this most baffling case but those like him or her and Snowflake do themselves no credit by just making the odd silly comment and then legging it!
 
If they would only debate sensibly, you never know, they might even make people believe that the McCanns had nothing to do with whatever happened to their daughter.
 
I agree with what Iris has just posted about Susan Healy; hard as nails, must know more than she says and deserves no sympathy.

They cannot enter a debate on this sensibly,it is impossible to support parents who are abject failures and hold the high ground.
Absolutely no evidence of an abduction but plenty of evidence that the mccann 'parents' are useless at looking after their children.
When you mention the dogs they get head rush,never fails.