Why I Believe Smithman is Real and Likely to be Gerry - Pat Brown

mossman wrote:Smith sighting 10 - 10.10 pm

Mrs Fenn on balcony at 10.30 - heard woman, went out, spoke to Gerry.

Distance from sighting to balcony, as walked by Pat Brown 8 minutes.

I read it was 10.15pm when Mrs Smith called from her balcony and Gerry told her te police had been called, which the hadn't of course .

As you can see from the map wjk posted , I would say it would take more than 8 minutes, Pat Brown wasn't carrying a child and the timelines all around can't be trusted . We don't even know where the Guy passing the McCanns was headed???

mossman wrote:Smith sighting 10 - 10.10 pm

Mrs Fenn on balcony at 10.30 - heard woman, went out, spoke to Gerry.

Distance from sighting to balcony, as walked by Pat Brown 8 minutes.

Correct!

Panda, I'm sorry if I'm missing your point, but what I'm saying is

Amaral never, to my knowledge said the Smiths were not credible.

It is, in theory, possible for the man to have been Gerry, given the 10.10 -10.30 timeline.

Mr Smith is the only one who thought it was Gerry. Mrs Smith did not make a second statement to the Gardai because she had nothing further to add to the night of 3rd May. Same as the rest of the family.

Amaral was in the process of getting Smith back to Portugal, in September/October. Prior to that the PJ had no specific reason to ask him to return, he had not suggested it was Gerry.

Leaving aside all of the above, an entire family comprising at least four adults and a teenager confirmed they passed a man with a child in that location that night. Who is the man and the child. I consider it absolutely necessary to find that out if this is to be resolved, other than a confession, I do not think SY will ever get a conviction without this being answered.

I will find it completely unbelievable if Redwood pulls another photograph out of thin air and tells us it is Smithman. For both suspects to be found in this way would not be acceptable IMO.

Thats it !   

Spot on, mossman!

ann_chovey wrote:

mossman wrote:Smith sighting 10 - 10.10 pm

Mrs Fenn on balcony at 10.30 - heard woman, went out, spoke to Gerry.

Distance from sighting to balcony, as walked by Pat Brown 8 minutes.

Correct!

Infamy, Infamy, they've all got it inferme  

Why won't you accept that I have a difference of opinon??? We all know the timelines cannot be exact , nobody looked at their watches to verify the time,  Are you all in agreement that the alarm was raised at exactly 10pm by Kate  everyone rushed to 5a and stood on the balcony? , Mrs Fenn went on to her balcony after hearing the commotion and Gerry told her Madeleine was missing  supposedly at 10.30pm and at the end of the day this is all we know., and I suggest we agree to differ on this and wait and see how this case ends. 

Unfortunately we don't know anything at all



At the end off the day the only real fact is.....Madeleine is missing, cadaver scent was found in the apt and on Kate mccanns clothes and in the hired car , that's it...


We don't know when she went missing, what befelled her on that fateful holiday , we don't know who was there when she died and we dont know who did what and who was responsible for making Madeleine 'disappear'.


We are 99% sure the mccanns know she is dead but knowing and proving is anything thing.


I believe the family know and are covering for them, it won't be the first time family have known and decided that having a parent or parents their to look after siblings is better than have them languishing in prison after all, what purpose would that serve, you can't bring the child back and the siblings would suffer more trauma...let's face it, knowing their was cadaver scent all over your daughters clothes and not asking questions is quite unbelievable , who in their right mind wouldn't ask about it, I would.


Not at the the table at 9.25....at the table at 10.00...Gerry McCann was at the table....Gerry McCann wasn't at the table...Kate McCann ran back to the tapas...Kate McCann shouted from the balcony ..did have watches...didn't have watches...all these are NOT facts.


Only the dogs are FACT.

Great post kitti   

mossman wrote:Amaral never, to my knowledge said the Smiths were not credible.

It is, in theory, possible for the man to have been Gerry, given the 10.10 -10.30 timeline.

Mr Smith is the only one who thought it was Gerry.  Mrs Smith did not make a second statement to the Gardai because she had nothing further to add to the night of 3rd May.  Same as the rest of the family. 

Hi mossman, apologies for snipping your post   
Don't forget Peter Smith, Martins son, who was the person who phoned his father to tell him to watch the news as HE ALSO thought the man they had seen was the same man carrying the child down the plane steps.
I'll have to check the files to see if he makes a second statement but I remember seeing an interview with him.

Neither Amaral, the PJ nor SY have ever ruled out the Smith sighting as not being credible. The only people who tried to rule him out (by suppressing information about him and ignoring him) were......McCann and their supporters....(cough cough)

SY ruled OUT Tannerman in Crimewatch, and very much ruled IN Smithman.

wjk wrote:

mossman wrote:Amaral never, to my knowledge said the Smiths were not credible.

It is, in theory, possible for the man to have been Gerry, given the 10.10 -10.30 timeline.

Mr Smith is the only one who thought it was Gerry.  Mrs Smith did not make a second statement to the Gardai because she had nothing further to add to the night of 3rd May.  Same as the rest of the family. 

Hi mossman, apologies for snipping your post   
Don't forget Peter Smith, Martins son, who was the person who phoned his father to tell him to watch the news as HE ALSO thought the man they had seen was the same man carrying the child down the plane steps.
I'll have to check the files to see if he makes a second statement but I remember seeing an interview with him.

Can anyone else remember the interview with Peter Smith (voice only, maybe a radio interview)?
I cant find it anywhere but remember hearing it, I think, last year.

Have I made this up?  
Was it a dream?  
Strike my original post if no one else can remember.

I can't remember it wjk. It may have been whooshed!

I must have dreamt it, wtt. Or I'm going round the twist! (more likely)   

I don't listen to the radio that often so I wouldn't know wjk.



A point I would like cleared up re the smith efit.



If mr smith didn't give any efits to Kennedy etc..how did it get Into halligens files ?




'He has been contacted by numerous tabloid press looking for stories. He has been contacted by Mr Brian Kennedy who is supporting the McCann family to take part in a photo fit exercise. He has given no stories or helped in any photo fits. He sent a solicitor’s letter to six papers in relation material that was printed that was misquoted. The Evening Herald paid his solicitor's fees and all papers printed an apology. His photograph appeared in another tabloid paper and this matter is being pursued at the moment'.

kitti wrote:I don't listen to the radio that often so I wouldn't know wjk.



A point I would like cleared up re the smith efit.



If mr smith didn't give any efits to Kennedy etc..how did it get Into halligens files ?




'He has been contacted by numerous tabloid press looking for stories. He has been contacted by Mr Brian Kennedy who is supporting the McCann family to take part in a photo fit exercise. He has given no stories or helped in any photo fits. He sent a solicitor’s letter to six papers in relation material that was printed that was misquoted. The Evening Herald paid his solicitor's fees and all papers printed an apology. His photograph appeared in another tabloid paper and this matter is being pursued at the moment'.

I suspect it is one of timing. Halligen was appointed later and possibly after the date of the statement above. I believe Exton said he arranged the e-fits.

Panda wrote:the "bloke" carrying a 4 yr old child would obviously take longer to go from a to b

It is not so far. 8 minutes looks possible for this (and someone who was there said this). The small streets make it look further on these maps.

Panda wrote:Mrs Smith says she spoke to Gerry from her Balcony at 10.15

I think we are assuming too much about these times and what this means. There could be 5 minutes more or less. We do not know how planned this may have been. In the event on that evening I think it would not be difficult for Gerry not to be there for 20 minutes,

Panda wrote:Smith and his family should have been taken to Portugal and shown several photos of Gerry and all agree that he was the man they saw, that is why Mrs Smith did not give a statement to the Guarda, because she wasn't sure. It was only Gerry stepping from the Plane carrying his Son that jogged Smith's memory, but that is the way most children would be carried  at  that age.

I think it was not this simple. Both Mr Smith and his son recognised the person as possibly Gerry after the event when they saw him on TV. But they could not make an official identification because they had not seen him clearly enough. Plus I believe they were under a lot of pressure because of the accusation this meant towards the McCanns.

kitti wrote:Unfortunately we don't know anything at all

I believe we know enough to suggest the parents were involved.

kitti wrote:Only the dogs are FACT.

Maybe they were not real dogs, but robot dogs sent in by Team Amaral, with a special computer program that was pre-designed to make them act like dogs who found specific smells.

I would find this no more difficult to believe than the stories which we were expected to believe about an abduction............

DavidA none of us really know what happened on that fateful night and we can make the theories as opposed to the truth but there are too many ifs for me to consider the Smiths.  Mr. Smith did not recognize Gerry straight away, it was the way the person who passed them carried their child that jogged his memory 4 months after passing each other.

There are other alternative scenarios. For instance,  what if  the timelines from everyone , including the Waiters were put together in sequence would the sighting be plausible ??  There s another possibility. What if Gerry found Madeleine dead on his 9pm visit? Put her body in the tennis bag in the Wardrobe met jez , had a chat with him so that timeline was accepted and when the twins were in the Paynes in the early hours he and Kate took the bag down to the beach and hid it in a cave  until it can be dsposed of, didn't the Portugese Police check out an Incinerator?

The McCanns according to the Press are very relaxed, feel Madeleine is alive and if nothing of significance is found before the Libel trial is over, they know they won't have to pay a penny to Amaral, but he will have to pay them.!!!

Here is the direct quote from Pamela Fenn's witness statement:
 
"During the day nothing unusual happened, until almost 22.30 when, being alone again, she heard the hysterical shouts from a female person, calling out “we have let her down” which she repeated several times, quite upset. MrsFenn then saw that it was the mother of little Madeleine who was shouting furiously. Upon leaning over the terrace, after having seen the mother, MrsFenn asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted. When asked, she replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to Gerry from her balcony, which had a view over the terrace ofthe floor below. She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any other scenarios. At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying that he could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done. It was just after 22.30."

https://missingmadeleine.forumotion.net/t8609-statement-of-mrs-fenn

Plus if an elderly person is judging the time because News at Ten finished, that's not accurate either. For one thing TV programmes have been known to run slightly ate and for another thing the programme finishing followed by adverts; Mrs Fenn may even have meant before the next programme, which would be several minutes allowing for the commercial break. She may even have confused the programmes because straight after News at Ten is local news, so she may have got her news programmes mixed up.

wjk wrote:

wjk wrote:

mossman wrote:Amaral never, to my knowledge said the Smiths were not credible.

It is, in theory, possible for the man to have been Gerry, given the 10.10 -10.30 timeline.

Mr Smith is the only one who thought it was Gerry.  Mrs Smith did not make a second statement to the Gardai because she had nothing further to add to the night of 3rd May.  Same as the rest of the family. 

Hi mossman, apologies for snipping your post   
Don't forget Peter Smith, Martins son, who was the person who phoned his father to tell him to watch the news as HE ALSO thought the man they had seen was the same man carrying the child down the plane steps.
I'll have to check the files to see if he makes a second statement but I remember seeing an interview with him.

Can anyone else remember the interview with Peter Smith (voice only, maybe a radio interview)?
I cant find it anywhere but remember hearing it, I think, last year.

Have I made this up?  
Was it a dream?  
Strike my original post if no one else can remember.

Hi WJK, no apology needed   

I don't recall Peter Smith saying that either. The reason I say this is I remember him saying he did not pay too much attention to the man because he was tending to his pregnant wife who felt ill as they were going home. I also have it in mind I read a narrative from one of the policemen in the statements which said something like Martin Smith was the only one who felt like that (referring to his feeling it was Gerry)

Just in from work so will have a look to see if I can find it later.

mossman wrote:

wjk wrote:

wjk wrote:

mossman wrote:Amaral never, to my knowledge said the Smiths were not credible.

It is, in theory, possible for the man to have been Gerry, given the 10.10 -10.30 timeline.

Mr Smith is the only one who thought it was Gerry.  Mrs Smith did not make a second statement to the Gardai because she had nothing further to add to the night of 3rd May.  Same as the rest of the family. 

Hi mossman, apologies for snipping your post   
Don't forget Peter Smith, Martins son, who was the person who phoned his father to tell him to watch the news as HE ALSO thought the man they had seen was the same man carrying the child down the plane steps.
I'll have to check the files to see if he makes a second statement but I remember seeing an interview with him.

Can anyone else remember the interview with Peter Smith (voice only, maybe a radio interview)?
I cant find it anywhere but remember hearing it, I think, last year.

Have I made this up?  
Was it a dream?  
Strike my original post if no one else can remember.

Hi WJK, no apology needed   

I don't recall Peter Smith saying that either.  The reason I say this is I remember him saying he did not pay too much attention to the man because he was tending to his pregnant wife who felt ill as they were going home.  I also have it in mind I read a narrative from one of the policemen in the statements which said something like Martin Smith was the only one who felt like that (referring to his feeling it was Gerry)

Just in from work so will have a look to see if I can find it later.

Aoife Smith (Martin Smith's daughter)

Around 22H00, they left Kelly’s Bar. The group headed, on foot, for their apartment.
• Questioned, she responds that she knows the time because her brother and father decided to leave early that night. There were two reasons for this: her sister-in-law was not feeling very well and the other reason had to do with her brother, sister-in-law, nephew and son of her sister-in-law, who were catching a flight to Ireland the very next day.

----------------------------

Sergeant

Liam Hogan

I hereby declare that this statement is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and that I make it knowing that if it is tendered in evidence I will be liable to prosecution if i state in it anything which I know to be false or do not believe to be true.


I would like to state that the statement I made on 26th May 2007 in Portugal is correct. The description of the individual that I saw on 3rd May 2007 carrying a child is as follows. He was average build, 5 foot 10” in height, brown hair cut short, aged 40 years approximately. Wearing beige trousers and darkish top maybe a jacket or blazer. He had a full head of hair with a tight cut. This individual was alone. I saw Gerard McCann (sic) going down the plane stairs carrying one of his children on 9th September 2007 BBC news at 10 PM, I have been shown the video clip by Sergeant Hogan which I recognise. A clip I have seen before on the Internet. In relation to the video clips of Gerard McCann and the person I saw on 3rd May 2007 when I saw the BBC news at 10 PM on 9th September 2007 something struck me that it could have been the same person. It was the way Gerard McCann turned his head down which was similar to what the individual did on 3rd May 2007 when we met him. It may have been the way he was carrying the child either. I would be 60-80% sure that it was Gerard McCann that I met that night carrying a child. I am basing that on his mannerism in the way he carried the child off the plane. After seeing the BBC news at 10 PM, footage on the 9th September 2007 I contacted Leicestershire police with this information. During that time I spoke to all my family members who were with me on the night of 3rd May 2007 about this and the only one who felt the same way as me was my wife. She had seen the video clip of Gerard McCann walking down the stairs of the plane earlier that day. We did not discuss this until some days later. This statement has been read over to me and is correct.

mossman wrote:

wjk wrote:

wjk wrote:

mossman wrote:Amaral never, to my knowledge said the Smiths were not credible.

It is, in theory, possible for the man to have been Gerry, given the 10.10 -10.30 timeline.

Mr Smith is the only one who thought it was Gerry.  Mrs Smith did not make a second statement to the Gardai because she had nothing further to add to the night of 3rd May.  Same as the rest of the family. 

Hi mossman, apologies for snipping your post   
Don't forget Peter Smith, Martins son, who was the person who phoned his father to tell him to watch the news as HE ALSO thought the man they had seen was the same man carrying the child down the plane steps.
I'll have to check the files to see if he makes a second statement but I remember seeing an interview with him.

Can anyone else remember the interview with Peter Smith (voice only, maybe a radio interview)?
I cant find it anywhere but remember hearing it, I think, last year.

Have I made this up?  
Was it a dream?  
Strike my original post if no one else can remember.

Hi WJK, no apology needed   

I don't recall Peter Smith saying that either.  The reason I say this is I remember him saying he did not pay too much attention to the man because he was tending to his pregnant wife who felt ill as they were going home.  I also have it in mind I read a narrative from one of the policemen in the statements which said something like Martin Smith was the only one who felt like that (referring to his feeling it was Gerry)

Just in from work so will have a look to see if I can find it later.

Hi mossman, I've spent hours searching and there is nothing to be found except like you say, he didn't pay much attention. I've gone through the statements etc so I must have dreamt it   Please, don't waste your time on it, it doesn't change the fact that there was enough time for Gerry to have been Smithman and be back at 5A by 10.30pm   

ann_chovey wrote:

mossman wrote:

wjk wrote:

wjk wrote:

mossman wrote:Amaral never, to my knowledge said the Smiths were not credible.

It is, in theory, possible for the man to have been Gerry, given the 10.10 -10.30 timeline.

Mr Smith is the only one who thought it was Gerry.  Mrs Smith did not make a second statement to the Gardai because she had nothing further to add to the night of 3rd May.  Same as the rest of the family. 

Hi mossman, apologies for snipping your post   
Don't forget Peter Smith, Martins son, who was the person who phoned his father to tell him to watch the news as HE ALSO thought the man they had seen was the same man carrying the child down the plane steps.
I'll have to check the files to see if he makes a second statement but I remember seeing an interview with him.

Can anyone else remember the interview with Peter Smith (voice only, maybe a radio interview)?
I cant find it anywhere but remember hearing it, I think, last year.

Have I made this up?  
Was it a dream?  
Strike my original post if no one else can remember.

Hi WJK, no apology needed   

I don't recall Peter Smith saying that either.  The reason I say this is I remember him saying he did not pay too much attention to the man because he was tending to his pregnant wife who felt ill as they were going home.  I also have it in mind I read a narrative from one of the policemen in the statements which said something like Martin Smith was the only one who felt like that (referring to his feeling it was Gerry)

Just in from work so will have a look to see if I can find it later.

Aoife Smith (Martin Smith's daughter)

Around 22H00, they left Kelly’s Bar. The group headed, on foot, for their apartment.
• Questioned, she responds that she knows the time because her brother and father decided to leave early that night. There were two reasons for this: her sister-in-law was not feeling very well and the other reason had to do with her brother, sister-in-law, nephew and son of her sister-in-law, who were catching a flight to Ireland the very next day.

----------------------------

Sergeant

Liam Hogan

I hereby declare that this statement is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and that I make it knowing that if it is tendered in evidence I will be liable to prosecution if i state in it anything which I know to be false or do not believe to be true.


I would like to state that the statement I made on 26th May 2007 in Portugal is correct. The description of the individual that I saw on 3rd May 2007 carrying a child is as follows. He was average build, 5 foot 10” in height, brown hair cut short, aged 40 years approximately. Wearing beige trousers and darkish top maybe a jacket or blazer. He had a full head of hair with a tight cut. This individual was alone. I saw Gerard McCann (sic) going down the plane stairs carrying one of his children on 9th September 2007 BBC news at 10 PM, I have been shown the video clip by Sergeant Hogan which I recognise. A clip I have seen before on the Internet. In relation to the video clips of Gerard McCann and the person I saw on 3rd May 2007 when I saw the BBC news at 10 PM on 9th September 2007 something struck me that it could have been the same person. It was the way Gerard McCann turned his head down which was similar to what the individual did on 3rd May 2007 when we met him. It may have been the way he was carrying the child either. I would be 60-80% sure that it was Gerard McCann that I met that night carrying a child. I am basing that on his mannerism in the way he carried the child off the plane. After seeing the BBC news at 10 PM, footage on the 9th September 2007 I contacted Leicestershire police with this information. During that time I spoke to all my family members who were with me on the night of 3rd May 2007 about this and the only one who felt the same way as me was my wife. She had seen the video clip of Gerard McCann walking down the stairs of the plane earlier that day. We did not discuss this until some days later. This statement has been read over to me and is correct.

The more I read those statements, and take into account Jane Tanner's bizarre alleged dual sighting of Gerry and Bundleman; and the McCann's blanket avoidance of the Smith family sighting for nearly two years, followed by a their sleazy attempt to morph Bundleman and Smithman into one, the more convinced I am that the Smith's did indeed run into Gerry McCann, scurrying manically somewhere to hide Madeleine!

I absolutely concur with Pat Brown x   

@pennylane.

Agree, the Smiths' sighting was the elephant in the room, ignored by the McCanns who preferred to focus on bundleman,.....he was very convenient, couldn't have been better placed if they'd tried.

Where would he hide her because he didn't want her found, not that night anyway.



Was it luck she wasn't found?

Thanks Ann-Chovey and WJK    

WJK. I did find a reference where Martin Smith said none of his family, except his wife felt the same way. Statement to Gardai January 2008, so perhaps that is what is in your mind.



After seeing the BBC news at 10 PM, footage on the 9th September 2007 I contacted Leicestershire police with this information. During that time I spoke to all my family members who were with me on the night of 3rd May 2007 about this and the only one who felt the same way as me was my wife. She had seen the video clip of Gerard McCann walking down the stairs of the plane earlier that day. We did not discuss this until some days later. This statement has been read over to me and is correct.