Case Files discussions

justagrannynow wrote:Hi everybody, glad to see the files are encouraging discussion.

I know studying them is a massive undertaking, but just the bits I have glanced through while posting them here has convinced me that the answer to this puzzle lies within those files. It might not lead us to where the body of Madeleine is, but it will make a convincing case for how she died and who covered it up.
Once those two facts have been established the solution will follow

Hi justgrannynow ,

I think your quite right , there is a lot of information contained in the files which when looked at carefully paints a pretty clear picture and it's time all this was brought out into the open . It's also interesting to discover what is there and what is missing . There are also answers I believe in things like the Genetic and Biological Forensic Services report though it's not easy to understand , the sample and results of those 11 hairs found in the garden area / flowerbed for example , if the results are missing as I can't seem to find them anywhere yet , it could be the proof that a body was indeed in that location , though how it could have gotten there is still a mystery and a matter of speculation , along with the EVRD's alert on the Veranda itself outside the parents bedroom .

Does anyone know of any reference anywhere to Apt 5A's safety railings on the Veranda being removed ? There is a photo showing that they were removed at some point , perhaps for forensic testing ? If I knew how to post one here I would show you .

On the 31 July 2007 'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog ( E.V.R.D.) searched the grounds of Aptartmant 5A and signalled to a scent in the garden area / flowerbed directly underneath the Veranda .

Between 21h49 and 22h00, in the garden adjacent to apartment 5A, accessible from by way of the veranada and steps, the cadaver dog alerted in a garden-bed directly below the veranda.

As a result of Eddies alert in this area a Forensics team appear to have taken samples on 1st Aug. from the shrubbery and fibres from that area as well as 11 hairs found in that spot .

The Genetic and Biological Forensic Service appear to have sent this sample , - 1 labelled envelope with delivery note n' 420D/2007-CR/L:
Vestigio: ( Vg25 ) - "Sundry head-hair" - 11 hairs , along with the samples of shrubbery and fibres to the FSS for analysis ...


Tests for blood were done on the shrubbery and fibres and nothing was found . What the fibres were and whether they were compared to any other know reference samples does not appear to have been done , or if so I have yet to come across them .

The capillary roots of the 11 hairs found in the garden area directly underneath the veranda of Apt 5a were damaged ( not good quality ) so a DNA test was not carried out , it appears no further analysis of these hairs were done , no Morphology analysis of the hairs or mtDNA tests done to try and determine who they may have belonged to .

It is to be hoped that these hairs were not the last remaining traces of Madeleine Beth McCann !


01 August 2007
2. Bushes from the garden of apartment 5 A, OC.
Conditioned and to preserved at SPL:
3. Fibres.
4. Hairs.
...

following the examination carried out by a British specialist dog team. Delivery note no. 286/2007 –CR/L):
21. Fragments of bushes.
There follow photographs of the outside of the apartment from where trace evidence was recovered as well as the detail thereof.
After the above there proceeded the collection of several branches of the climbing
plant in the garden they having been encased in a paper package referenced as trace evidence number 21 and of possible fibres on a wall of the apartment garden, next to the climbing plant, using six Crystal-Tabs appropriate for this they having been referenced as trace evidence number 26.

https://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z10/ ... II3200.jpg

https://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z10/ ... II3201.jpg

Photos 17 through 19: Pictures of the garden area from which the above evidence was collected.
Conclusions:
On 1 August 2007 the following trace evidence was collected from [the apartment and garden] as better described in the report:
[the list of collected items is repeated] ....

From John R Lowe's report -" 286/2007-CRL (21) Fragments of bush/shrubbery
Insofar as it relates to this sample, the examination performed was aimed at the detection of the possible presence of blood, no trace thereof having been found. Particles from the superficial surface layer were recovered and preserved in a way similar to that of hairs and fibres. In my opinion, the capillary roots were not good quality as they were not adequate to perform DNA profile tests. " ...

Please mods or admin move to appropriate place if needed.


http://thenew3as.blogspot.com/2010/02/katherina-zacharias-gasper-statement.html

Processos Vol XIII
Pages 3911 to 3915

Judiciary Police
National Directorate


TRANSLATION

Surname: GASPAR
First Names: KATHERINA ZACHARIAS
Age: +18
Date of Birth:
Address:
Postal Code:
Profession:
Telephone no.:
Date of Statement: 16/05/2007
Number of Pages: 8

I make this statement in relation to the MCCANN family who are currently in Portugal. The MCCANN family is composed of Gerry MCCANN, his wife, Kate MCCANN and their three children, Madeleine, 4 years old, and Sean and Amelie, who are twins, aged two.


As has been widely covered by the news, Madeleine is not with her family presently, and has been missing for the last two weeks.

I will begin by explaining that I am married to Savio Gaspar and that we have two daughters, E., who is almost 3 and I. who is now one year old. I have been married to Savio for 11 years. I am a General Practitioner like my husband. I met my husband when we were (page 1) working together in Exeter, about 14 years ago.

To explain the way in which we met the MCCANN family, I would like to state that my husband knows Kate, as they both attended Dundee University between 1987 and 1992. At that time, Kate’s name was Kate HEALY. I met Kate and Gerry on the occasion of their wedding, around 1998, in Liverpool. Both Savio and I went to the wedding because as Savio was an old friend of Kate’s, we were both invited to the event.

As far as I know, Savio did not know Gerry before the abovementioned wedding. From that time onwards, we met as friends about three times a year and we would spent weekends away together. I would say that we became intimate friends of Gerry and Kate.

I remember that in 2002 or 2003, Savio and I spent a weekend with Gerry and Kate in Devon. We would stay in contact with each other by telephone.

In 2002/2003 Savio and I were living in Birmingham and the MCCANNS in Leicester.

In September of 2005, Savio, I and E., who at the time was about 1 and a half years old, went to spend our holidays abroad, in Majorca. We went (page 2) on holiday with Kate, Gerry, and Madeleine, who would have been around 2 and a half years old and with the twins, Sean and Amelie, who were just months old. I remember that I was pregnant with I.

During those holidays there were also friends of Gerry and Kate with us.

There was a couple, whose names were Dave and Fiona, and whose surname was PAYNE, I believe. I think that they were married and had one daughter aged about 1, named L. I remember that during those holidays that Fiona was pregnant.

There was another couple, whose names were Tara and Stuart, but whose surname I cannot remember who were also on holiday with us. They had two boys, aged 1 and 3, whose names I do not remember. I did not know these two families before we went on holidays together. From memory, I think that it was Dave who organised these holidays and we all stayed together in a big house when we were in Majorca.

We spend a week on holidays, however, the MCCANN family and the PAYNE family stayed for two weeks. I think that Tara and Stuart, and their two children, also stayed for just one week.

Two or three days had gone by, we were all staying in Majorca where, in general terms, we had fun (Page 3) with our children. Possibly, around the fourth or perhaps the fifth day abroad, I remember an incident that stayed recorded in my head. I say this in this way, because I have thought numerous times about the incident that I am about to describe since that date.

One night, when we were on holiday, the adults, in other words, the couples that I mentioned were on a patio outside the house where we were staying. We had been eating and drinking.

I was sitting between Dave and Gerry whom I believe were both talking about Madeleine. I don’t remember the conversation in its entirety, but it seemed they were discussing a possible scenario. I remember Dave telling Gerry something like “she”, referring to Madeleine, “would do this”.

When he mentioned “this”, Dave was sucking on one of his fingers, pushing it in and out of his mouth, whilst with the other hand he circled his nipple, with a circulating movement over his clothes. This was done in a provocative manner there being an explicit insinuation in relation to what he was saying and doing.

I remember that I was shocked at this, and looked at Gerry, and also at Dave, to see their reactions. I looked around (page 4) to see “did anyone else hear this, or was it just me”. There was a nervous silence noted in the conversations of all the others and immediately afterwards everyone began talking again.

I never spoke to anyone about this, but I always felt that it was something very strange and that it wasn’t something that should be done or said.

Apart from this, I remember that Dave did the same thing once again. When I refer to this, I want to mention again that it was during a conversation, in which he was talking about an imaginary situation, though I could not say precisely what it was about. I believe that he was talking about his own daughter, L., though I’m not certain. He slid one of his fingers in and out of his mouth, while the other hand drew a circle around his nipple in a provocative and sexual manner. I believe that he was referring to the way that L., would behave or would do it.

I believe that he did this later on, during the holidays, but I cannot be sure. The only time, besides this one, that I was with Dave and Fiona was several weeks after the holidays, when Savio and I met up with Gerry, Kate, Dave and Fiona at a restaurant in Leicester.

I am absolutely certain that he said what he said and that he made the gestures I referred to, but that could have occurred in the restaurant in Leicester, even though (page five) I believe that it was later on, in Majorca. When I heard Dave saying and doing this a second time, I took it more seriously.

I remember thinking whether he looked at the girls in a different way from me or from the others. I imagined that maybe he had visited Internet sites related to small children. In short, I thought that he might be interested in child pornography on the internet.

During our holidays, I was more attentive at the bath times after hearing Dave saying that.

During our holidays in Majorca, it was the fathers who took care of the children baths. I had the tendency to walk close to the bathroom, if it was Dave bathing the children. I remember telling Savio to took care to be there, in case it was Dave helping to bathe the children and, in particular, my daughter E. I was very clear about this, as having heard him say that had disturbed me, and I did not trust him to give bath to E. alone.

When I heard Dave say that a second time, it reinforced what I already thought in relation to his thoughts about girls. During our stay in Majorca, Dave and his wife, Fiona, accompanied by their daughter L., took Madeleine (page 6) with them to spend the day, in order to give Kate and Gerry a bit of rest and time to be with the twins. When I say this, it is not that I was worried about Madeleine’s safety, since she was also with Fiona and L., and also with Dave, as far as I know.

As I have already mentioned, I was only with Dave and Fiona on one occasion, after Majorca, and I have not spoken to them since then. In the last two years, we have met, as a family, with the MCCANN, every now and then. This mainly happens on the children’s birthdays, a time when we meet up.

The first time I heard of the terrible news about Madeleine’s disappearance through the radio, my thoughts went immediately to Dave. I asked Savio if Dave was also on holidays with the MCCANN in Portugal but he did not know.

I watched the TV thoroughly, and seeing the news coverage, I noticed that Dave was there, because I saw him, in the background, on the television images during the first days after Madeleine’s disappearance. Based upon that, I believed that he was on holidays with the MCCANN in Portugal.

Today, Wednesday, 16th of May of 2007, at 17:40, I gave DC Brewer an A4 page containing 2 photographic images. I am going to refer to these images as (Ref KZG/1) (element of proof) that may (page seven) be presented as means of proof, if necessary. These photographs were taken during the holidays in Majorca. In the photographs, Dave is wearing a white T-shirt and the woman in the photograph corresponds to his wife Fiona. The man who is holding the glass of wine in the photograph is Stuart. These photographs were taken while we were in Majorca.

Signed:

Translation [PJ] done by C.R.F.E.

Note: Retroversion from the Portuguese translation

Was this ever investigated by ANYONE. My stomach is churning after Reading that

K. GASPAR: ''I remember thinking whether he looked at the girls in a different way from me or from the others. I imagined that maybe he had visited Internet sites related to small children. In short, I thought that he might be interested in child pornography on the internet.

During our holidays, I was more attentive at the bath times after hearing Dave saying that.

During our holidays in Majorca, it was the fathers who took care of the children baths. I had the tendency to walk close to the bathroom, if it was Dave bathing the children. I remember telling Savio to took care to be there, in case it was Dave helping to bathe the children and, in particular, my daughter E. I was very clear about this, as having heard him say that had disturbed me, and I did not trust him to give bath to E. alone.''

*****************************************

On top of the despicable gestures with his fingers and the nipple-circling, I think we can safely say that bathing the girls is not normal, and that Leicester police should be held entirely at fault for not telephoning and faxing this information directly to Amaral so that McCann and Payne could be arrested and questioned for this behaviour.

There is nothing innocent about this behaviour. This is all the proof that I need that Leicester police have deliberately misled the investigation. LP's balls should be chopped off and coated in bronze so that we can hold them up to all the other perverse police officers and judiciary who pervert the course of justice.

Antoinette wrote:Was this ever investigated by ANYONE. My stomach is churning after Reading that

You'd best ask Matt Baggott !! He's in charge of Northern Irish police at the moment.

Antoinette I don't see how they could have been investigated without our knowledge because they woud have had to be arrested under caution because of the seriousness of the allegations and the newspapers would have been tipped off about it at the time. This was covered up from the moment the Gaspars left the police station I think.

All the top flight scum within ACPO would have crapped themselves and got straight on the blowers to the networks. Hence the rapid growth of PRO-sites which we have seen develop over the past couple of years. For what use they have been.

PRO-sites weren't invented to search for Madeleine and comfort the McCanns and that is for sure. The PRO-sites rose up to protect the vast and intricate network of paedophiles and all the money made from it and that is undoubted. The main thing being, to make sure that all those people who want to find out the truth look like idiots and stalkers of the parents. With the help they have had from the newspapers and TV bosses, they haven't done a bad job either.

BUT THEY WON'T WIN! BOOK BAN OR NOT. BECAUSE THIS WILL RUN AND RUN UNTIL PAEDOPHILIA IS OUTLAWED FOR THE GROWING ELITE.

It's interesting to watch the site stat meter.

Jem wrote:Antoinette I don't see how they could have been investigated without our knowledge because they woud have had to be arrested under caution because of the seriousness of the allegations and the newspapers would have been tipped off about it at the time. This was covered up from the moment the Gaspars left the police station I think.

All the top flight scum within ACPO would have crapped themselves and got straight on the blowers to the networks. Hence the rapid growth of PRO-sites which we have seen develop over the past couple of years. For what use they have been.

PRO-sites weren't invented to search for Madeleine and comfort the McCanns and that is for sure. The PRO-sites rose up to protect the vast and intricate network of paedophiles and all the money made from it and that is undoubted. The main thing being, to make sure that all those people who want to find out the truth look like idiots and stalkers of the parents. With the help they have had from the newspapers and TV bosses, they haven't done a bad job either.

BUT THEY WON'T WIN! BOOK BAN OR NOT. BECAUSE THIS WILL RUN AND RUN UNTIL PAEDOPHILIA IS OUTLAWED FOR THE GROWING ELITE.

A few points. Why, on the basis of one rather unclear statement, should thay have been arrested and interviewed under caution, and why would the police have had to advise forum memers of such an action? The statement is full of very uncertain terms, and a rather hysterical conculsion about internet sites. Her husbands statement does not seem to be of much support:

Volume XIII TOC, pgs. 3892 to 3601

3916 to 3920

Witness statement of Arul Savio Gaspar



Name: Arul Savio Gaspar

Date of statement: 16-05-2007

This statement was made in relation to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

I currently work as a GP at Saint Clements Surgery, Birmingham, where I have been employed for the last nine years.

Madeleine is the daughter of Kate and Gerry McCann and we are friends of the family.

I have known Kate since 1987, when we met at Dundee Medical School, and became friends. We have remained in touch all this time and meet up 3 or 4 times a year, we often talk on the phone or email each other.

When we first became friends in 1987 she was still known as Kate Healy, this was the case until she married Gerry at the end of 1990s. Kate and I completed our medical degrees in 1992, when we each carried on with our lives, once we had begun our careers.

After I finished my degree I began my career in Exeter, and I think Kate went to Glasgow.

I only met up with Kate again in 1997 or 1998. At that moment I was married to Katherina, we had both been invited to attend Kate and Gerry’s wedding.

After their wedding we lost contact and I think they went to New Zealand.

We only met up again in 2001 in Birmingham.

The couple visited us in the house where we then living, in Athingys Green, and this was the first time I talked to Gerry.

I think that at the time Kate and Gerry were living in Queeniborough, Leicestershire.

From 2001 and 2005 we were in regular contact and often visited each other’s homes.

We planned holidays for the first week of September 2005 in Majorca, Spain, together with three other couples including Kate and Gerry. We did not know the other two couples, they were friends of Kate and Gerry’s, we had never met them before.

We all had children.

When we went on this holiday we had one daughter, Ellena aged 18 months.

Kate and Gerry had 3 children, Madeleine almost two and the twins who were six months old.

The other couples were Fiona and David Payne and their daughter Lily who was one year old and Stuart and Tara who had two boys aged three and one. I do not remember Tara and Stuart’s surname nor the names of their children.

Katherine and I had booked the holiday for one week and the other two couples had booked for two weeks. We stayed together in a large villa.

We all arrived at the villa separately.

During the period we stayed at the villa I remember a gesture made by David Payne.

I do not remember the context of the conversation between David and Gerry, but I do remember seeing David use his left index finger to rub his nipple, using circular movements, whilst he put his right index finger into his mouth, touching his tongue. This happened during a meal, at the end of the day in the villa, I do not remember the time or the date, but we would usually dine between 19.30 and 21.00 every day. I think this happened in the middle of the holiday.

I remember that when I saw this gesture I immediately thought it to be in very bad taste, independently of the context of the conversation they were having. We were sitting around a white plastic table in the villa. I don’t know if anyone else saw the gesture, apart from my wife Katherina. After this gesture, we did not notice any others and as far as i know, the gesture was not repeated.

We never commented on this gesture during the rest of the holiday and I thought no more about it.

I can describe Dave as a Caucasian male 1.78 m tall, and of a medium complexion. He had brown hair and used glasses/contact lenses depending on the circumstances.

I can say that Dave was a pleasant person. I do not remember him having any unusual characteristics.

During the holidays Dave never behaved in an inappropriate manner with Madeleine or with any of the other children. Dave was popular with the children and I took this to be because he was a close friend to the family.


I never distrusted Dave. After the holidays there was one occasion when we were with Kate and Gerry and Fiona and Dave were also present.

That was in a restaurant in Leicester in 2005. I do not remember the name of the restaurant.

We had a pleasant evening, just the three couples without the children.

I do not remember Dave having behaved inappropriately on this occasion. We have not spoken to Dave or Fiona since December 2005, only due to their being friends of Kate and Gerry, not for any other reason.

The last time I saw Kate, Gerry, Madeleine, Sean and Amelie was in March 2007 when they came to our house for the first birthday celebration of my daughter Isabella. On the morning of 4th May Katherine saw the news about Madeleine on television. We were very shocked and worried given that they were close friends.


It was during the days following the news of the abduction that we discovered that Fiona and David Payne were also with them in Portugal.

It was at this moment that Katherina showed concern at the gesture made by Dave in Majorca in 2005. Katherina remembered that when Dave made the gesture he was referring to Madeleine.

I only remember that Katherina saw the gesture at the time, I had forgotten the episode, it was never the subject of conversation.

At the time I did not feel the gesture was referring to Madeleine.

It is my wish that the police are aware of my preoccupation with the gesture made by David Payne.

Signed. .

Anyway, that said, moving to the question of "pro" sites - I think you will find that most of them were set up to provide a place to discuss the case for those who are not convinced that the McCanns are the personification of all evil.

I firmly believe this was intended to be hushed up by LP but someone within that force was not happy with this and deliberately slipped a copy of the statement into other information that was being forwarded to PT after Amaral was taken off the case.
The big question for me is that there is no evidence whatsover that Rebello the muppet/puppet never pursued the statement with either DP or GM
Why why why ?????????

Sans I for one do not think the mccanns are the persofication of all evil. I do believe they are solely responsible for their daughter going missing as they were the "stupid parents" who left 3 children under 3 years of age ALONE in an unlocked apartment. So if a predator did get in and take Madeleine they have no one to blame but themselves.

If you think everyone on these sites are against the mccanns and think they are the persofication of all evil. and I don't mean any disrespect when I say this. Why are you on this site?

http://gasparstatements.blogspot.com/

The more people who get this information out there, the better.

Antoinette wrote:Sans I for one do not think the mccanns are the persofication of all evil. I do believe they are solely responsible for their daughter going missing as they were the "stupid parents" who left 3 children under 3 years of age ALONE in an unlocked apartment. So if a predator did get in and take Madeleine they have no one to blame but themselves.

If you think everyone on these sites are against the mccanns and think they are the persofication of all evil. and I don't mean any disrespect when I say this. Why are you on this site?

That was in answer to Jem's post above:

"PRO-sites weren't invented to search for Madeleine and comfort the McCanns and that is for sure. The PRO-sites rose up to protect the vast and intricate network of paedophiles and all the money made from it and that is undoubted. The main thing being, to make sure that all those people who want to find out the truth look like idiots and stalkers of the parents. With the help they have had from the newspapers and TV bosses, they haven't done a bad job either. "

duncanmac wrote:I firmly believe this was intended to be hushed up by LP but someone within that force was not happy with this and deliberately slipped a copy of the statement into other information that was being forwarded to PT after Amaral was taken off the case.
The big question for me is that there is no evidence whatsover that Rebello the muppet/puppet never pursued the statement with either DP or GM
Why why why ?????????

Perhaps they did, perhaps that is the whole story tale that LP currently sits on. I would very much doubt that LP would not have done some homework on this situation. I dont recall anything in the file about the contents of GMs hard drive in the files but then again my memory wasnt what it once was

I actually do believe the mccanns are the personification of evil.

They left three children alone in an unfamiliar apartment two of them babies and one toddler,with apparently, the doors left open and a swimming pool outside.
They went to the bar with their friends to eat and drink and socialise whilst leaving those children to the mercy of chance and god knows what else.
They have tried to justify these actions as being 'responsible'

They are worse than useless parents who have shown no remorse.

The actions of david payne are dubious to say the least,both Gaspars confirm what he did,the only doubt is in what 'context' ?
Down the pub with your mates talking about page three girls you might get away with a few laughs.In a family environment with female company and maybe kids close by ? I dont think so.

sans_souci wrote:

Antoinette wrote:Sans I for one do not think the mccanns are the persofication of all evil. I do believe they are solely responsible for their daughter going missing as they were the "stupid parents" who left 3 children under 3 years of age ALONE in an unlocked apartment. So if a predator did get in and take Madeleine they have no one to blame but themselves.
If you think everyone on these sites are against the mccanns and think they are the persofication of all evil. and I don't mean any disrespect when I say this. Why are you on this site?

That was in answer to Jem's post above:
"PRO-sites weren't invented to search for Madeleine and comfort the McCanns and that is for sure. The PRO-sites rose up to protect the vast and intricate network of paedophiles and all the money made from it and that is undoubted. The main thing being, to make sure that all those people who want to find out the truth look like idiots and stalkers of the parents. With the help they have had from the newspapers and TV bosses, they haven't done a bad job either. "

I meant your comment quoted below
"Anyway, that said, moving to the question of "pro" sites - I think you will find that most of them were set up to provide a place to discuss the case for those who are not convinced that the McCanns are the personification of all evil"

so do you think everyone on Anti sites don't want justice for Madeleine. As I said already these Kids were left Alone and according to Kate & Gerry someone got in and took Madeleine from her bed. If they had have been responsible parents in the 1st place then no-one would have been able to get in and take Madeleine. So the pro sites are supporting 2 parents who neglected their children and because of this Madeleine is now missing. I'm sorry but if people want to support parents like that what is the world coming to. It is their own faults. No one twisted their arms and made them go to the tapas bar that night or any other night that they left their children alone. When Madeleine was born she was the responsibility of Kate & Gerry for life not just when it suited them.

sans_souci wrote:Anyway, that said, moving to the question of "pro" sites - I think you will find that most of them were set up to provide a place to discuss the case for those who are not convinced that the McCanns are the personification of all evil.

Sans souci

I think we think of evil as an Ian Brady, Ian Huntley, Rose West type figure. Here is what the dictionary says as to the meaning of the word evil:-

e·vil (vl)
adj. e·vil·er, e·vil·est
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
3. Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
4. Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
5. Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.

I think all of those can be applied in this instance to this whole sorry charade.

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it".
Albert Einstein - I think that sums up this site quite nicely. If it wasnt for sites like this and media coverage prior to the Carter Rucks involvement the mccanns would be home and dry by now. Madeleine would have been forgotten.

Oh, I'm all for honesty. Personally, I think MOST (and I mean most, not all) pros and pro sites are very disturbed people who defend child neglect as a perfectly reasonable behaviour, who defend child neglectors as victims, who are willing to overlook suspicions of paedophilia if it goes against their views and who defend convicted child murderers and describe them as poor victims. So, more than the McCanns, those are the ones who are the personification of evil. Or more precisely, scum.

its never been a man thing to bath my daughter in our house,
ive always bathed her,
never heard of men bathing their little girls before,
seems strange the men saw to this on holiday.

FWIW, I don't think it's odd for any father to give his baby or toddler a bath - once girls are older it's different but not at that age - someone else bathing your daughter would be different though

amethyst wrote:FWIW, I don't think it's odd for any father to give his baby or toddler a bath - once girls are older it's different but not at that age - someone else bathing your daughter would be different though

I agree I'd say most fathers of toddlers bathe their kids.

When I was a baby/small child my dad bathed me as many times as my mum. We lived in a foreign country and they both worked different shifts so I wouldn't have to be cared for by a family member or a babysitter and so I would never be alone. Not even for one minute. For five years, they worked opposite shifts for me and my well being. My dad changed nappies, bathed me, cooked for me, dressed me (although my mum said his taste was very questionable), took me to playgrounds, took me to the paediatrician, etc. And that is something I will be grateful for everyday of my life.

amethyst wrote:FWIW, I don't think it's odd for any father to give his baby or toddler a bath - once girls are older it's different but not at that age - someone else bathing your daughter would be different though

I do agree with you there.
I would not have let Payne anywhere near my daughter if I had even the slightest doubt about him, let alone keep an eye on him near the bathroom.

my daughter works nights and my son in law always bathes and puts littluns to bed..i'm ok with that. my partner of 12yrs who is step grandand to littluns would be so embarresed if asked to bathe littluns and i would never ask him..i'm not comfortable with it...but there are male nursery nurses.