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Deleted calls/use of mobiles

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Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  C.Edwards on Sat 9 Mar - 11:42

I'm doing some research into deleted calls from the phones of the McCanns. If anyone has any knowledge of the exact make and model phone that either McCann was using, please let me know and then I can do some research into the call log memory and manipulation capabilities of those phones. I can't find record of the types of phone anywhere and it seems impossible that the PJ didn't record this.

As you know by now, I prefer to rummage through the files where possible instead of relying on the "generally accepted truth" as we know that leads to all sorts of unsubstantiated misinformation. There's a piece on mccannpjfiles.co.uk (deleted calls) which, at first glance looks like it might be quite factual but then when you read through it, it soon becomes fairly obvious it has a distinct "anti" slant on it (a reference to "whoosh clunked" gives that away). I'm not saying it's wholly inaccurate but I have seen references to this piece elsewhere as though it is entirely factual and there's one, fairly crucial, bit of it that I can't find supporting evidence for and I don't know if I'm missing something or whether it's genuinely wrong.

My starting point was the belief I had that call records and/or text messages had been deleted but not entirely cleanly, thus leading to suspicion by the PJ that something was not quite right. Something along the lines of Amaral's book where he says:
The PJ check Kate and Gerry's phone records. Kate did not make any phone calls between the 27th April and the 4th of May which arouses suspicions. And hasn't received any between 11:22 on the 2nd of May and 23:17 of the 3rd. Gerry's phone has no record of calls before the 4th at 00:15. But there is a record on Kate's phone of a phone call from her husband on the 3rd May at 23:17. The same record doesn't exist on Gerry's phone. So the records were deleted. Why?

So, what do we know... In the files, we have the call log from Gerry's Phone as entered by the PJ:

Gerry's calls - As mentioned by Amaral, no calls made/received before 4th May.
Calls made by him on the left, calls received on the right.

For Kate, this is the call record:
Kate's calls - The calls of interest are bottom right two. A received call from Gerry and the "wrong number" from the UK on the 2nd.

Vodafone records
Gerry SMS in
Gerry Voice in
Gerry Voice out

I can't find in the files the same records as above for Kate. The only details available are on antenna activations which don't differentiate between calls or texts in or out.
Kate antenna activations

Where's the mistake?
My belief was (don't know where I got it from now) that Gerry had made 4 calls to Kate on the night of the 3rd. He deleted all records, she deleted all but one (shows in log above). I think it all stems from the "deleted calls" article I linked to at the top of the page in which it states:
It appears that he had deleted details of the four calls he made to her that night and she deleted just three
when referring to Kate & Gerry's phone records. I cannot see anything other than the two calls made at 23:14 and 23:17 so why does that article refer to four calls? It appears to be blatantly wrong to me. If anyone can point out something I'm missing, that'd help in trying to sort out this anomaly.

I'm not aware of the official interviews making many references to phone usage, so all there is to go on (unfortunately, as they're hardly reliable) is press reports... there's an article in the Mirror (link below) from May 2008 in which the following is reported:

They claim Gerry was sent 10 texts from an unknown number 24 hours before Madeleine disappeared.

And detectives say four messages arrived from the same mystery number the day after she went missing, according to court documents.

But Gerry and wife Kate have dismissed the claims as "utter rubbish".

A source close to them said: "They have had their phone records available for inspection for months. But the police never asked for them. And now they have formally asked, they have been refused.

"Any suggestion of Gerry receiving 10 texts the day before Madeleine disappeared are utter rubbish.

"He hardly used his phone during the holiday and most of the friends with them didn't even have mobiles.

"The only time his phone rang was when work called and he explained he was on holiday. There are no mystery texts. Gerry has nothing to hide. It's yet more nonsense coming from Portugal."
Gerry "furious" about story (Mirror, 29th May 2008)
Gerry's Fury

Utter rubbish? Well he wasn't sent 10 texts on the 2nd, it was 14. Hardly makes it utter rubbish. The texts were, however, all from the messaging service of vodafone telling him there was a voicemail. Seems a lot of voicemails. Maybe a work problem? It is, however, fairly accurate to say he hardly used his phone - the records show only a handful of calls, so can't argue with that. There is, however, the question of the call that Graham McKenzie overheard (see below) that was obviously not made on his phone. Did he have another phone? Did he borrow one from another member of the T9? No idea as yet.

As to the "most of the friends with them didn't even have mobiles" statement. That's baloney. They all did. Mobile antenna activations for the group

A missing call with no record?
After reading an article in the Express on 16th September 2007, Graham McKenzie comes forward: Graham McKenzie
He reports being around the McCann apartment at approx 23:00 on 3rd May and hearing a distraught Gerry talking on a mobile phone to someone. There is no record of this call - not on Gerry's phone (unsurprisingly if the call log has been deleted) and more tellingly, not on the Vodafone records. As we know Gerry's mobile was fine at around 23:17 when he definitively called Kate, it seems odd that he apparently wasn't using his mobile at the time Graham McKenzie heard him talking. Maybe it was "on charge" until he used it that little bit later? Who knows. Whose phone did he use instead? Not Kate's as there's no call record on her phone either.

What's the problem with deleted calls/texts anyway?
There's the million dollar question. According to those that support the McCanns, there is NOTHING suspicious in deleting SMS messages and call log records. In fact some question if it's even possible to delete call log records. (As Kate McCann has illustrated, quite obviously it is possible to do so - and selectively - on her phone model at least). Many McCann supporters will state, as corroborating evidence, that their own phone often has to be cleared down or deleted as otherwise they are unable to receive texts or calls.

Firstly what mobile phone on the planet would stop incoming or outgoing calls even if the call log was "full"? Can you imagine the lawsuits if someone couldn't make or take a call because they hadn't got the memory available? The phone would still work, it just wouldn't record the details! I've had dozens of mobile phones and my recollection of all call logs was that, when full, it would overwrite the memory starting with the oldest. Text messages, I agree, can get a full inbox and require deleting. Still shows, to me, remarkable poise at a moment of extreme stress for people to stop and think of deleting records on their mobile phones just in case the memory was nearly full. As with other things McCann, it all seems to come down to what agenda you have personally as to whether you recognise these actions as entirely innocent or somewhat suspicious.

Finally, what does it prove? Nothing much. As with most things surrounding the case it's all just more indications of strange behaviour and slightly intangible evidence (no direct quotes) of lies about mobile usage. Raises plenty of questions, for sure, and I don't subscribe to the point of view of those who support the McCanns when they claim the deleting of call records is an entirely normal thing to be doing when your daughter has just gone missing.

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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  ProfessorPlum on Sat 9 Mar - 11:58

I think kikoratton on CMOMM has looked into this.

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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  Panda on Sat 9 Mar - 12:56

Philomena says Gerry made a call to her that night , utterly distraught . Kate phoned her Mother asking for the Priest's number and there was a mysterious call from her to someone in Swansea I seem to remember. There might be some information in the mccannfiles.

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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  ProfessorPlum on Sat 9 Mar - 13:10

Wasn't that a wrong number?

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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  Badboy on Sat 9 Mar - 13:14

ProfessorPlum wrote:Wasn't that a wrong number?
I BELIEVE IT WAS FROM A CALL CENTRE.

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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  Panda on Sat 9 Mar - 13:50

I think the fact that calls were deleted in the first place is suspicious since the McCanns did not make many anyway. Showing my ignorance here , but wouldn't the phone provider , ie Vodaphone etc be able to trace the calls if requested by the Police. ?

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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  matthew on Sat 9 Mar - 14:18

http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.co.uk/2008/12/more-on-deleted-call-records.htm

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DELETED_CALLS.htm


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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  matthew on Sat 9 Mar - 14:28

The Swansea call later investigated to be a wrong number left in the phone records does suggest selectivly deleting the phones history,when your messages are full i tend to delete usually my outbox first & inbox when full,it is time consuming to delete all but a wrong number,if the make of the phone could be found then it would give a clue to the total amount of messages allowed to stay in the memory

Was Kate McCann forensically aware of the phones history or just numb with pain,was confused when deleting the history & the Swansea number left was just a coincidence?

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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  Carolina on Sat 9 Mar - 14:38

Why would any parents think about deleting phone calls and messages from their phones when their daughter is missing? To me that is the question.

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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  Panda on Sat 9 Mar - 14:58

matthew wrote:http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.co.uk/2008/12/more-on-deleted-call-records.htm

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DELETED_CALLS.htm


Thanks matthew , a great find, gazeta digital is no longer available though.
"However, both Jane Tanner and Russell O'Brien have stated that he did not go to
the Tapas Bar on the 'Quiz Night' (ie Tuesday 1st May 2007), but had stayed in
their room looking after his sick daughter. Jane Tanner took his dinner to the
room; thus explaining the unused plate setting. Russell O'Brien was not asked by
either the Polícia Judiciaria or Leicestershire Police whether he had heard
Madeleine crying!"

It appears Jane's daughter must have been quite ill if she was sick on 1st and 3rd May......can we find out if she was signed into the creche on 2nd and 3rd of May.? Mouro, An American/Portugese Detective was hired by CBS News to go to PDL to find out what he could. Since he speaks Portugese he was able to communicate with the Staff at OC and they said Jane Tanner was not in the Restaurant on 3rd May.?

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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  ann_chovey on Sat 9 Mar - 15:14

matthew wrote:The Swansea call later investigated to be a wrong number left in the phone records does suggest selectivly deleting the phones history,when your messages are full i tend to delete usually my outbox first & inbox when full,it is time consuming to delete all but a wrong number,if the make of the phone could be found then it would give a clue to the total amount of messages allowed to stay in the memory

Was Kate McCann forensically aware of the phones history or just numb with pain,was confused when deleting the history & the Swansea number left was just a coincidence?

Co-incidentally Rachel Oldfield's family is from Swansea.

this link should work............

http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.fr/2008/12/more-on-deleted-call-records.html

Gerald McCann excused the deletions by saying that his telephone's memory only retained details of the last ten calls made. This obvious inaccuracy (It already had retained details of 17 calls)


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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  Panda on Sat 9 Mar - 15:31

Thanks ann_chovey , it's the same report in the mccanfiles I quoted from. Your'e good at finding stuff can you try to find this?
"A detailed (and excellent report) by Inspector Paulo Dias, Inspector of
UNI-Sector de Análise, Lisbon, dated 9th November 2007"

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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  Loopdaloop on Sat 9 Mar - 22:14

Don't forget the phones on the logs are the mccanns initial phones.
The Mccanns acquired additional pay as you go mobiles shortly after the 'disappearence'.
It is unclear whether the police have ever recieced the records from those ones.
Worrying about 'being bugged' is not the first thing people would be worrying about!

I wonder if its possible to cross reference the times Gerry went right down into the sea by the rocks using his phone with the call logs.

Whats the theory again re the antenna pings? Isnt there an occasion where it pings somewhere significant?

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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  AnnaEsse on Sat 9 Mar - 22:25

Loopdaloop wrote:Don't forget the phones on the logs are the mccanns initial phones.
The Mccanns acquired additional pay as you go mobiles shortly after the 'disappearence'.
It is unclear whether the police have ever recieced the records from those ones.
Worrying about 'being bugged' is not the first thing people would be worrying about!

I wonder if its possible to cross reference the times Gerry went right down into the sea by the rocks using his phone with the call logs.

Whats the theory again re the antenna pings? Isnt there an occasion where it pings somewhere significant?

Was it Russell O'Brien who said he was in a certain place but pings seemed to show he was somewhere else? Pamalam might know the answer to this.

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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  tanszi on Sat 9 Mar - 22:29

i recall that phone pings suggested someone wasnt where they said they were.

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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  AnnaEsse on Sat 9 Mar - 22:31

tanszi wrote:i recall that phone pings suggested someone wasnt where they said they were.

Yes, I remember that too.

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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  C.Edwards on Sat 9 Mar - 22:46

It's all available at mccannpjfiles under "outros apensos" at the bottom. Last three: 11, 12 & 13 are phone related I think. Can't check right now as site seems to be down.

People who keep linking to the same page I did (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DELETED_CALLS.htm) should at least bear in mind this is the one that has the apparent mistake about 4 calls to Kate from Gerry on the night of the 3rd. I'm amazed that the PJ don't seem to have recorded the make/model of the phones used by the T9.

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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  tigger on Sun 10 Mar - 7:50

AnnaEsse wrote:
tanszi wrote:i recall that phone pings suggested someone wasnt where they said they were.

Yes, I remember that too.


That was a phone ping on the 10th June. Gerry and Kate left that afternoon for Morocco. When they came back they mentioned that they needed time to 'grieve'.

The phone call is linked I believe to the disused barn where the PJ found certain items.

From McCann files:
1/12/07

It is revealed that Portuguese police are investigating a mobile phone call from Russell O'Brien to Gerry McCann that was made on 10 June 2007. A team of telephone surveillance officers highlighted the call as it is understood to have contained key words that aroused police suspicions.

Investigators are concentrating on the exact whereabouts of Dr O'Brien when the call was made. It is understood Gerry McCann told detectives the call was made within a 4km radius of Praia da Luz but technicians working on the mobile phone network have dismissed this after examining records. It is believed the call took place 28km from Praia da Luz.

2/12/07

It is reported that Portuguese police are investigating a disused barn in the south-east of Praia da Luz following the discovery of a blood stained towel which police believe may turn out to be Madeleine's blood.

Fibres on the towel allegedly match fibres from the Renault Scenic hire car the McCanns' hired 25 days after Madeleine's disappearance.

It is understood Portuguese detectives discussed the breakthrough when they met British police and a Crown Prosecution Service official last week at a police station in Leicester.

The fresh information is believed to have come from mobile phone surveillance police who tracked a signal to the remote and deserted barn. There they found a towel with an Aztec design, which revealed three sites of blood deposits on the edge of the towel. Tests showed there was 'moderate' support to suggest the blood deposits matched Madeleine's blood.

unquote

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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  AnnaEsse on Sun 10 Mar - 8:02

tigger wrote:
AnnaEsse wrote:
tanszi wrote:i recall that phone pings suggested someone wasnt where they said they were.

Yes, I remember that too.


That was a phone ping on the 10th June. Gerry and Kate left that afternoon for Morocco. When they came back they mentioned that they needed time to 'grieve'.

The phone call is linked I believe to the disused barn where the PJ found certain items.

From McCann files:
1/12/07

It is revealed that Portuguese police are investigating a mobile phone call from Russell O'Brien to Gerry McCann that was made on 10 June 2007. A team of telephone surveillance officers highlighted the call as it is understood to have contained key words that aroused police suspicions.

Investigators are concentrating on the exact whereabouts of Dr O'Brien when the call was made. It is understood Gerry McCann told detectives the call was made within a 4km radius of Praia da Luz but technicians working on the mobile phone network have dismissed this after examining records. It is believed the call took place 28km from Praia da Luz.

2/12/07

It is reported that Portuguese police are investigating a disused barn in the south-east of Praia da Luz following the discovery of a blood stained towel which police believe may turn out to be Madeleine's blood.

Fibres on the towel allegedly match fibres from the Renault Scenic hire car the McCanns' hired 25 days after Madeleine's disappearance.

It is understood Portuguese detectives discussed the breakthrough when they met British police and a Crown Prosecution Service official last week at a police station in Leicester.

The fresh information is believed to have come from mobile phone surveillance police who tracked a signal to the remote and deserted barn. There they found a towel with an Aztec design, which revealed three sites of blood deposits on the edge of the towel. Tests showed there was 'moderate' support to suggest the blood deposits matched Madeleine's blood.

unquote

Thanks tigger.

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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  Claudia79 on Tue 12 Mar - 13:13

C. Edwards, please take your discussions with posters from other fora elsewhere. If you have something to say to a poster on another forum, reply to him/her there. Your post will be deleted shortly.


Last edited by Claudia79 on Tue 12 Mar - 13:46; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  C.Edwards on Tue 12 Mar - 13:30

Claudia79 wrote:
C. Edwards, please take your discussions with posters from other fora elsewhere. If you have something to say to a poster on another forum, reply to him/her there. Your post will be deleted shortly.

Are you not able to appreciate that there are valid discussion points raised within my post? Is this not a forum for discussion? Do you not think that others on here may wish to comment on the points I've raised?

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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  chrissie on Tue 12 Mar - 13:43

I'm posting this by way of a rant at another forum (not Haverns)

I stopped reading at this point.

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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  Claudia79 on Tue 12 Mar - 13:46

C.Edwards wrote:
Claudia79 wrote:
C. Edwards, please take your discussions with posters from other fora elsewhere. If you have something to say to a poster on another forum, reply to him/her there. Your post will be deleted shortly.

Are you not able to appreciate that there are valid discussion points raised within my post? Is this not a forum for discussion? Do you not think that others on here may wish to comment on the points I've raised?

Anyone wishing to respond to the person you quoted, can do it on the forum the person posts, although I suspect not many are really interested in contact with such posters. This matter is not up for discussion. If you wish to engage in discussion with said poster, go to where he/she posts. This is the last post on this topic.

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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  Not Born Yesterday on Tue 12 Mar - 13:50

Hope it's okay just to add that, from what I've seen and heard of the STM forum, though it's not as toxic as JATYK2, it is absolutely pointless trying to have a debate with anyone there.

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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

Post  kitti on Tue 12 Mar - 16:56

I'm rather surprised at c Edwards....I thought he would off gone on to diss the dogs but it seems he has changed his mind and is now disputing the deleted phone calls.


Oh well, I have thought about it and now I'm thinking his threads are really to dispute anything that mr amaral has stated..

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Re: Deleted calls/use of mobiles

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