EC PRESIDENT CALLS URGENT MEETING FOR TOMORROW #2

Panda wrote:Hi fuzeta,

I remember when the Holy Grail was released it caused a lot of controversy, I never saw it , but I did see Life of Brian. That 45 mile stretch of water has
made Britain rather insular and the history of warfare between Britain , France and Germany has spanned several Centuries and we really don"t like them
do we.

"little islanders" we are Panda and our relationship with the mentioned countries has always been rather , shall we say, strained. I don't think it is our fault though

gillyspot you had no need to remove your post we all knew what you meant and it was no slight on individual people. Having said that I do not think that the countries mentioned will have any restraint on what they say about us. But we "little islanders" have always been more polite, sometimes I think is is part of our problem with the EU

Thanks fuzeta

It just seemed xenophobic and I have enough of that from the McCanns at present.

I still believe that the Anglo German axis have always aimed to be in charge of Europe though and we are a nuisance to them.

Who's looking forward to the next Eurovision. United Kingdom Nil points lol

fuzeta I have just watched a discussion between Mr. Rubin, former heart of the U.S, Treasury and a Woman senior at the FT and the host Charlie something.

the general concensus appears to be that there are too many issues with regard to the Eurozone and the contagion around the world is causing all
kinds of problems. One thought the Eurozone will muddle through but must concentrate on growth. The FT asked where the growth was coming from and
said Germany is enjoying the decine in the value of the Euro because it helps exports but germany imports very little and they should import more to make trade fairer.

Depositors are taking their money out of European Banks which is wht Draghi is lending them for three yeaers via the IMF to guarantee he will be repaid.
The Eurozone has 150 Billion euros, is it enough and how long will it last.Draghi is very clever but he should not get involved in lending to the Eurozone
and buying more bonds.

It is very likely the Eurozone will collapse unless they come up with a more viable solution and delay the fiscal policy to allow growth . If she and Saerkozy are standing at the Abyss they thought she would change her demands.

The Lehmann crisis had Geithner, Paulson and Bernanke working together all very talented in their thinking and working together, this is not happening
in the Eurozone and the issue of Eurobonds when they first drew up the Treaty might have succeeded but Merkel is adamant she doesn"t want a
eurobond becuase she will always be bailing out the southern Countries who are not as industrious as the North.

The consensus was that they cannot see a way out of the euro Crisis , had they dealt with Greece more quickly they could have contained the matter.

do you know girls, this thread has had 181 hits so far today , our fame is spreading,LOL and there are several hits in the early hours of the morning, not our Members, because we are safely tucked up in bed , although I am up up quite early . When you think about it , this topic affects everyone , and there is not a lot going on on the Forum at the moment, wait til February though.

gillyspot wrote:Thanks fuzeta

It just seemed xenophobic and I have enough of that from the McCanns at present.

I still believe that the Anglo German axis have always aimed to be in charge of Europe though and we are t a nuisance to them.

Who's looking forward to the next Eurovision. United Kingdom Nil points lol

gillyspot there does seem to be a trend that every generation or so a certain country seems to want to rule Europe. That is a fact and one most europeans should remember. I have close Dutch friends and they think exactly the same. Plus they are so pleased that we stood up for ourselves at the summit.

Just goes to show that most of the European governments have lost the knowledge of what the people of their countries really want. Or they choose to ignore it, which is more likely. I do believe that other European countries wished that their governments would have stood up to the dictators like Cameron did.

Except of course the poor countries ,people that think that there is something free coming their way, such as Lithuania and the likes. I cannot believe that woman, Prime Minister/ President or whatever she was. Had the cheek to speak out against us. How much are they putting in??? Has she fallen in love with Sarkozy or what? She was practically drooling over him after he kissed her hand. Dear God!!

Well she will quickly learn her lesson and she must remember that if Britain withdraws from the EU. There will be many billions short to prop up these countries who want something for nothing. They cannot prop up the the ones they have already!

No one has seen the small print of this treaty yet. Maybe more will use a veto. I do hope so. If they do not, they need to get a German Language course

As someone said on the radio this morning. "We are a net contributor to the EU fund and whilst they want the money they will have to listen to us. "

My Euro bond has rallied a bit.

Lioned wrote:My Euro bond has rallied a bit.

Thats the main thing Lioned

Should say its not worth much,might get me to Greece for a weeks holiday when the price goes down.

Lioned wrote:Should say its not worth much,might get me to Greece for a weeks holiday when the price goes down.

Make sure you take a tucker bag Lioned. One cannot afford to eat out there now. In fact it has been too expensive for tourists to eat out there for over ten years but that was just a rip off Nothing to do with the position they are in now!!!

The Greeks for many years now have given out the same old grubby apartments where the shower does not work and they have no hot water. The most uncomfortable beds in the world. Terrible food. etc etc.

That was ok when it was all very cheap, people used to just laugh it off. Part of the charm. Problem with Greece was prices kept rising but what they gave in return did not improve. When a holiday starts costing a lot of money people need value for it.

IMO they were in trouble with tourism long before they took on the Euro, that just made it much worse.

We used to go there quite a lot,because it was cheap but also very nice,apart from Thassos which was plagued with wasps.
We went to Skiathos the year after the Euro and all the prices had pretty much doubled from our previous visit a couple of years before.
The Euro caused inflation everywhere,and your right it was all very basic and never improved.

Hi fuzeta

Sorry only just got back on line and missed your post. Was it Kozy who kissed Mer?

I think you are right about Kozy. Although I don't harbour any anti feelings about the French or any other nation but I do feel there is a bit of power struggling going on here. I was wondering about the Dutch and what they thought about all of this and was pleased to read that they approved of the Cameron veto.

I have not been to Greece for a long time - although I spent some time on Rhodes about 7 years ago. I so love the islands. Yes even then the amenities were a bit tempramental but I did enjoy the slow pace compared to the UK.

I think that the New Year will become quite hairy for some people as you say Panda we will feel the full force of the TM spin machine I have no doubt!

Euro's 'Saviour' Regrets UK Blocking Treaty

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The European Commission's Economic and Financial Affairs Commissioner Olli Rehn said he 'regret's the UK's decision





3:10pm UK, Monday December 12, 2011



Robert Nisbet, Europe correspondent






The man charged with trying to save Europe's single currency
has said he "regrets" the UK's decision not to support an EU rescue
plan.


The European Commission's economic and financial affairs commissioner
Olli Rehn told reporters he was "very disappointed" the changes would
now be limited to a fiscal compact and not a full-blown treaty
amendment.


But Mr Rehn set up a potential legal spat between the EC and the UK
when he told reporters he believes the commission, one of the EU's main
pillars, would be able to police the pact.


British Prime Minister David Cameron believes the deployment of any
EU institutions to enforce a pact agreed outside the EU, such as the
European Court of Justice, would be illegal.


Discussion about the British decision has been muted inside Brussels'
main organisations which are starting to wind down for the Christmas
break, while MEPs are packing for their final plenary session in
Strasbourg.


But there have been intense debates at drink and dinner parties and
among the 'sherpas' - those officials who work away behind the scenes on
their national governments' behalf.


One representative from the German mission told me that he was
"shocked" the UK had decided to flex its muscles over a measure designed
to save the currency it insisted had to be stabilised.


That contradicts German Chancellor Angela Merkel's assertion that she
never expected Mr Cameron to be 'at the table' on the pact to tighten
up financial regulations.

Great Britain is now largely isolated. As a result, it needs to ask itself what role, if any, it still plays in this new Europe.

Der Spiegel











But commentators in both France and Germany, the other big European
powers, have been vocal this weekend about whether this means the UK's
eventual exit from the union is now inevitable.


Germany's Der Spiegel wrote: "Great Britain is now largely isolated.
As a result, it needs to ask itself what role, if any, it still plays in
this new Europe."


Le Monde, one of France's most respected newspapers, opined: "There
is a sense that the British are well away from a movement towards
greater economic integration and budgets... They do not believe in the
European idea."


Analysis and editorials in several French publications suggest Mr
Cameron had been "played" and "manipulated" by France's President
Nicolas Sarkozy who is facing re-election in Spring next year.


They claim he was able to use Mr Cameron as political cover in his
central disagreement with Germany over how far to integrate or
centralise fiscal union.


Unlike Mrs Merkel, Mr Sarkozy never wanted a treaty change, preferring a looser coalition or pact.


By blaming Mr Cameron for wrecking the deal, that clash was avoided.


In Spain, the newspaper El Pais also suggested Mr Cameron's actions
suggested a PM in trouble - not in control: "The crisis serves to weaken
a prime minister who does not have the full support of his own party."


But there is also some backing for Mr Cameron, from those who
acknowledge he has to balance domestic political considerations as the
EU swallows up more powers to try to contain the sovereign debt crisis,
which shows few signs of abating.


The German weekly Die Zeit said the Prime Minister had little choice because of his "bad hands of cards".


And if you think the UK is the only conflicted country in the
European Union, consider this: A poll in Bild am Sonntag suggests 46% of
respondents believe Germany would be better off out of the EU with 45%
wanting to stay.

Fitch , the ratings Agency is also concerned saying the EU has npt done enough and increased the pressure . There is increased downturn across Europe .

Australian Bank Westpac spokesman agrees the EU has not done enough and should not wait until next March , he says it is likely that France will lose it"s
AAA rating.

Fort Washington Investments is saying that because the ratings Agencies are forewarning about downgrades they won"t be such a shock.

Societe Generale says it expects the EU to go into recession .

Dollar reaches 2 month high against the Euro and there is concern that Draghi does not get talked into reversing Trichet"s policy of maintaining stability
of the Euro.

U.S. Congress will not tolerate any manoevres by the ECB to "lend" money to the IMF only to have it used by the European Countries.

Bond sales today are being sold by Italy , Spain, Belgium and Portugal, these are short term and the yield will be important.

Angelique wrote:Hi fuzeta

Sorry only just got back on line and missed your post. Was it Kozy who kissed Mer?

I think you are right about Kozy. Although I don't harbour any anti feelings about the French or any other nation but I do feel there is a bit of power struggling going on here. I was wondering about the Dutch and what they thought about all of this and was pleased to read that they approved of the Cameron veto.
I have not been to Greece for a long time - although I spent some time on Rhodes about 7 years ago. I so love the islands. Yes even then the amenities were a bit tempramental but I did enjoy the slow pace compared to the UK.

I think that the New Year will become quite hairy for some people as you say Panda we will feel the full force of the TM spin machine I have no doubt!

Hi Angelique. Not sure about Sarkozy kissing Mer It was the Lithuania head of state's hand he bowed over and she never left his side. Looked at him as if he was God. The middle aged blonde woman with a perculiar hair style, had a bit of a bouffant on the top

I adore Greece Angelique I can just see why their tourism has gone down so much.

Finland risks threat to Euro.

Spanish Bonds , 6.5 billion sold this morning, there was a big demand for them and the yield was a bit lower.

Moody"s putting 8 Spanish Banks on alert.

EU Banks are selling Crown Jewels to raise Capital undermining growth

Sarkozy is resigned to the fact that France may lose it"s AAA rating.

Stock Market has rallied this morning .

There was a tickertape , couldn"t read it all but it said something about EU debt clause in Ireland....could be significant because I don"t think Ireland has signed the new Treaty yet, concerned that their 12.5 % Corporation Tax would be affected.

That ticker tape came up again saying "STT said to review EU Debt Clause in Ireland in the event of Irish exit from the Euro"

That will put the cat amongst the pidgeons if Ireland leaves the Euro, it had come out of recession when the Italian bailout caused another crisis.

Italian Bond Yields up slightly.

Breaking News, Portugal may Nationalise Banks in historic irony.

European Stock Exchanges fluctuating prior to opening of U.S. Stock Exchange.

Ministers
should have been consulted on David Cameron's EU negotiating strategy,
Chris Huhne has insisted at the first Cabinet meeting since the veto.


Sky sources say the Liberal Democrat Energy and Climate Change
Secretary was the most outspoken person during the 90-minute meeting.


Growing tensions over Europe dominated a full hour of the Downing Street get-together.







Clegg: Everybody Knows The PM And I Disagree












The Prime Minister's official spokesman said Mr Cameron's negotiating
strategy had been agreed in advance with deputy Nick Clegg.


"Clearly there are differences in view in the coalition on this
issue, but there is also a lot of common ground, in particular the need
to push ahead with the single market," he said after the Cabinet
meeting.


"There is an understanding that both parties come from a different position on Europe."


The weekly meeting came a day after their differences were laid bare by Mr Clegg's decision not to attend the Commons as the Prime Minister defended using Britain's veto in Brussels.


The Deputy Prime Minister was reportedly furious when he heard the
Prime Minister had refused to sign up to a new treaty to help tackle the
eurozone crisis.


He warned it could leave Britain isolated in Europe and was
"potentially a bad thing for jobs, a bad thing for growth and a bad
thing for the livelihoods of millions of people in this country".








Lib Dem Dismay

Nick Clegg - "I'm bitterly disappointed."
Vince Cable - UK "finished in a bad place".
Paddy Ashdown - "A catastrophically bad move."
Baroness Tonge - "We have been sold a pup."

Liberal Democrats react to David Cameron's EU veto



















The Deputy Prime Minister chose to arrive for the 9am Cabinet meeting on foot and walked past the waiting cameras and reporters.


This contrasted with his House of Commons no-show on Monday, when he
stayed away from the chamber during Mr Cameron's statement on the euro
veto.


Mr Clegg said he did not attend as he did not want to be a "distraction" during the debate.


Aides said television images of the Lib Dem leader sat silently
beside Mr Cameron would be more damaging to the party than negative
headlines about his no-show.


In the chamber, Mr Cameron was given a rousing reception by
eurosceptics on his own benches, who hailed him for standing up for UK
interests and showing a
"bulldog spirit".


The Prime Minister told MPs he had negotiated in "good faith" but had
no option after other EU countries refused to agree to "modest,
reasonable and relevant" safeguards for the City of London.


"The choice was a treaty without proper safeguards or no treaty and
the right answer was no treaty," said Mr Cameron. "It was not an easy
thing to do, but it was the right thing to do."










Nick Clegg was pictured walking in to No 10 Downing Street for the meeting





However, he was quick to play down suggestions the veto on fiscal
reforms should be followed by a referendum on Britain's membership of
the European Union.


"Our membership of the EU is vital to our national interests," said
Mr Cameron. "We are a trading nation and we need the single market for
trade, investment and jobs."


Labour leader Ed Miliband said the deal was "bad for Britain" and
accused Mr Cameron of abandoning the UK's national interest to appease
Tory eurosceptics.


"How can you expect to persuade anyone else it's a good outcome when
you can't persuade your own deputy?" he said in a jibe at Mr Clegg's
absence.


Labour are set to push the issue further still as the party have
decided their "opposition day debate" later this afternoon will focus on
Europe.

Panda

Many thanks for all the updates. One wonders about the dissenters - are they using this as a shield to a power struggle within the Lib.Dems or is it just to get media attention - not their faces in the news IUSWIM.

Look at what Kozy is now saying, something totally different. They are all playing bluff here. I knew it was poker they were calling each other out.

Though I am not surprised the Cameron is now saying this does not mean there will be a referendum and that we still need the single market. If the EU does go into depression there won't be any single market - no one is going to trade with anyone. We should get out and trade as we have done before with anyone willing to buy.

What a load of cobblers.

They cant even sign the same song on the hymn sheet!

P.S. I see the drinks the dinners was mentioned. Did you know that if any MEP criticizes the EU they get their bonus and perks taken away. No wonder no one disses it!

European Commission Chief Assails Britain Over Treaty Veto

By SARAH LYALL and ALAN COWELL

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LONDON — A senior European official blamed Britain directly on Tuesday for making compromise impossible at a summit meeting last week when Prime Minister David Cameron vetoed European Union treaty changes designed to help save the euro currency. In Parliament on Monday, Mr. Cameron said he had acted to protect Britain’s interests and, contrary to criticism, had not consigned the country to the sidelines of Europe.

Enlarge This Image

Vincent Kessler/Reuters

Jose Manuel Barroso, the president of the European Commission, at the European Parliament in Strasbourg on Tuesday.



Multimedia


Interactive Feature
Tracking Europe's Debt Crisis



Related

• Cameron Says His Veto on Europe Treaty Protects Britain(December 13, 2011)
  
• Pondering a Dire Day: Leaving the Euro(December 13, 2011)
  
• German Official Backs Tax Vetoed by Britain(December 13, 2011)
  

On Tuesday, as the British cabinet prepared for its first full meeting since Mr. Cameron’s veto on Friday, José Manuel Barroso, the president of the European Commission, told the European Parliament in Strasbourg, France, that Mr. Cameron had sought “a specific protocol on financial services, which, as presented, was a risk to the integrity of the internal market” — a reference to the vast European Union trade area.
“This made compromise impossible,” he said. “All other heads of government were left with the choice between paying this price or moving ahead without the U.K.’s participation and accepting an internal agreement among them.”
Mr. Barroso’s remarks seemed certain to fuel the anger of the so-called euroskeptic lawmakers in Mr. Cameron’s dominant Conservative Party who are pressing for a renegotiation of Britain’s entire relationship with the other 26 countries in the European Union.
Mr. Cameron’s veto has also angered Nick Clegg, the leader of the Liberal Democrats, the junior coalition partner, who was conspicuously absent when the British Parliament assembled Monday for a raucous debate on events at the summit.
As members of the Labour opposition shouted “Where’s Clegg?” Mr. Cameron seemed at pains to offer soothing words to those afraid that he had so alienated his European allies that Britain was bound to leave the European Union altogether on Monday.
“Britain remains a full member of the E.U., and the events of the last week do nothing to change that,” Mr. Cameron said. “Our membership of the E.U. is vital to our national interest. We are a trading nation, and we need the single market for trade, investment and jobs.”
In his speech on Tuesday, Mr. Barroso offered a contrasting vision, suggesting that British refusal to give ground had left it standing alone, despite efforts by European officials to introduce compromise proposals to bridge the gap between the majority of European Union members and Britain.
He said the compromise would have shielded European Union states outside the 17-nation euro zone from discrimination. Britain boasts the biggest economy of those outside the euro zone, but it relies for at least half its trade on the countries that do use the single currency.
“Unfortunately, that compromise proved impossible,” Mr. Barroso said, “and so it was not possible to have a solution that could allow all 27 member states to agree in the framework of current treaties.”
“Last week, most heads of state or government of the member states showed their willingness to move ahead with European integration toward a fiscal stability union. They showed that they want more Europe, not less,” he said, implicitly criticizing the British for a lack of European spirit.
The veto has plunged British politics into turmoil.
But, after vitriol poured out at Mr. Cameron over the weekend — from the Labour Party, from prominent Liberal Democrats in the coalition government, from European diplomats — Monday’s session in Parliament was oddly anticlimactic. Buoyed by the compliments of anti-European backbenchers in the Conservative Party, who said they would have vetoed the treaty if Mr. Cameron had signed it, the prime minister appeared relaxed and self-assured, exuding the easy confidence that is one of his strongest political assets.
He told Parliament, as he has said all along, that he exercised Britain’s veto because the proposed treaty changes, meant to avert future European economic disaster by strengthening fiscal discipline, gave no assurances to safeguard the future of London’s financial services industry, a critical part of the British economy.
“The choice was a treaty with the proper safeguards or no treaty,” he said. “The result was no treaty.”
Mr. Cameron’s veto left Britain standing alone in Europe. All the other 26 European Union countries either agreed to the proposals, which will be negotiated according to intergovernmental agreements, or said they would seek the approval of their parliaments back home.

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Panda

"“The choice was a treaty with the proper safeguards or no treaty,” he said. “The result was no treaty.”
Mr. Cameron’s veto left Britain standing alone in Europe. All the other 26 European Union countries either agreed to the proposals, which will be negotiated according to intergovernmental agreements, or said they would seek the approval of their parliaments back home. "

So this treaty may be rejected by some of the member countries anyway.

More "deadlines" coming up then. I thought they only had three days left.

I have been having a lot of trouble posting - this is one I tried to post earlier luckily I had copied it:


fuzeta

Right - it was the Lithuanian chap - I think I know who you mean. I remember when all the "Leaders" lined up for the annual photo there was a blonde lady - this is the one - yes ?

Getting back en post - if Mer is now hinting that she didn't expect us to be here/there - this is just a ruse. They need all the help they can get to bolster the Euro. They can't afford anyone to leave. They have got to have as many countries in the gang as possible so they can tax them and borrow on the prospect.

I think this was a "smash and grab" at London's Banking system. They have always wanted it to be in Brussels - think Cameron knew this anyway.

Angelique wrote:Panda

"“The choice was a treaty with the proper safeguards or no treaty,” he said. “The result was no treaty.”
Mr. Cameron’s veto left Britain standing alone in Europe. All the other 26 European Union countries either agreed to the proposals, which will be negotiated according to intergovernmental agreements, or said they would seek the approval of their parliaments back home. "

So this treaty may be rejected by some of the member countries anyway.

More "deadlines" coming up then. I thought they only had three days left.

Hi Angelique, MEP"s do very well, all their travel and Hotel expenses paid and what exactly have they acheived for Britain. they leave with a good Pension and the EU is a bloated bureaucracy which is only functioning when it tells memebers what they can and can"rt do.

It looks as if Ireland may not be signing the Treaty, I mentioned it earlier. on here.

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European sovereign debt crisis















Long-term interest rates of all Eurozone countries (secondary market
yields of government bonds with maturities of close to ten years).^[1] A yield of 6 % or more indicates that financial markets have serious doubts about credit-worthiness.^[2]





Late-2000s financial crisisFrom late 2009, fears of a sovereign debt crisis developed among investors concerning rising government debt levels across the globe together with a wave of downgrading of government debt of certain European states. Concerns intensified early 2010 and thereafter^[3][4]
making it difficult or impossible for Greece, Ireland and Portugal to
re-finance their debts. On 9 May 2010, Europe's Finance Ministers
approved a rescue package worth €750 billion aimed at ensuring financial stability across Europe by creating the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF).^[5] In October 2011 eurozone
leaders agreed on another package of measures designed to prevent the
collapse of member economies. This included an agreement with banks to
accept a 50% write-off of Greek debt owed to private creditors,^[6][7] increasing the EFSF to about €1 trillion, and requiring European banks to achieve 9% capitalisation.^[8] To restore confidence in Europe, EU leaders also suggested to create a common fiscal union across the eurozone with strict and enforceable rules embedded in the EU treaties.^[9][10]

While the sovereign debt increases have been most pronounced in only a
few eurozone countries, they have become a perceived problem for the
area as a whole.^[11] Nevertheless, the European currency has remained stable.^[12]
As of mid-November 2011 it was trading even slightly higher against the
Euro bloc's major trading partners than at the beginning of the crisis.^[13][14] The three most affected countries, Greece, Ireland and Portugal, collectively account for six percent of eurozone's gross domestic product (GDP).^[15]