Panorama:Madeleine:The Last Hope...Thur 3rd May

maive wrote:

I don't see it that way...

«There are lots of holiday-makers at this time and sealing off the perimeter would ruin their stay; the hotel complex would be overrun with hordes of journalists, Air traffic services - the airspace would have to be closed..»

Tourism industry, Air traffic, Airspace - For me it sounds governmental preoccupations/objections, and I have no reason to believe that the rest of the sentence «people might think that the parents and their friends were suspects and, of course, the field mustn't be left open for that kind of deliberation» comes from another source.

I understand your way of thinking, of course, but I can't see why the Portuguese government would be reluctant for a recon. on the basis that it could lead the public to think that the McCanns and their friends were suspects. They'd all been interviewed by the police several times, they were the key witnesses in the affair and it's completely normal to hold a reconstruction of a crime, which involves the innocent passers-by (which is what they claim to be).

On the other hand, we have read it reported that four months later, KMc's reaction to being told she was an arguida was along the lines of 'what will my parents think?' so I can see a consistency between the two reactions, i.e. 'if we take part in a reconstruction, people might think we're guilty of something'.

At the end of the day it is not the place of TM, their mates or anyone else to question the effectiveness
of a reconstruction, that is up to the police, we have all seen their ridiculous questions and excuses about the reconstruction which says it all.

The team of investigators discussed the possibility but a decision was taken that there would be no reconstruction in spite of some dissenting voices

Someone saying 'a decision was taken' is really saying that this decision was taken out of their control and against what they thought was the right decision

jd16 wrote:

The team of investigators discussed the possibility but a decision was taken that there would be no reconstruction in spite of some dissenting voices

Someone saying 'a decision was taken' is really saying that this decision was taken out of their control and against what they thought was the right decision

I agree.

Wintabells wrote:

Fern wrote:

Which reasons mentioned by GA do you feel the Tapas group were responsible for ?

Personally I feel it was due to the disruption to the Ocean Club holidaymakers it would have caused and so the PJ decided against it at the time.

Hi Fern

I've made numerous posts on this on the previous page (18) explaining my thinking on this, but I've replicated part of one here to answer your question:

And those reasons sound like they were raised by perhaps multiple parties, including maybe Mark Warner themselves - There are lots of holiday-makers at this time and sealing off the perimeter would ruin their stay; the hotel complex would be overrun with hordes of journalists, Air traffic services - the airspace would have to be closed, and the parents and friends, - 'people might think that the parents and their friends were suspects and, of course, the field mustn't be left open for that kind of deliberation'.

Given how PdL was turned into a media 'circus' and remained that way for quite some time, it must have been very unpleasant for those on holiday at the time.

Maybe it was MW themselves who refused to allow a recon to be undertaken on the premise that enough disruption had been caused already.

Who knows.

Wintabells wrote:

I understand your way of thinking, of course, but I can't see why the Portuguese government would be reluctant for a recon. on the basis that it could lead the public to think that the McCanns and their friends were suspects. They'd all been interviewed by the police several times, they were the key witnesses in the affair and it's completely normal to hold a reconstruction of a crime, which involves the innocent passers-by (which is what they claim to be).

I understand very well your point and I agree actually. But the big picture that I see is that from day 1, the PJ was unable to investigate that case as they wanted. I see political pressure right from the beginning, starting with the way that the case was handled, that the McCanns were treated, that GA was treated and the way the McCanns were allowed to escape.. And all those objections against that reconstruction (May) confirm my opinion..

Wintabells wrote:

On the other hand, we have read it reported that four months later, KMc's reaction to being told she was an arguida was along the lines of 'what will my parents think?' so I can see a consistency between the two reactions, i.e. 'if we take part in a reconstruction, people might think we're guilty of something'.

It makes sense, Wintabells, they could be that source!

The government were doing their very best to disrupt the organisation, I hope in the fullness of time that all will be revealed about the part GB had to play in this.

Fern wrote:

Wintabells wrote:

Fern wrote:

Which reasons mentioned by GA do you feel the Tapas group were responsible for ?

Personally I feel it was due to the disruption to the Ocean Club holidaymakers it would have caused and so the PJ decided against it at the time.

Hi Fern

I've made numerous posts on this on the previous page (18) explaining my thinking on this, but I've replicated part of one here to answer your question:

And those reasons sound like they were raised by perhaps multiple parties, including maybe Mark Warner themselves - There are lots of holiday-makers at this time and sealing off the perimeter would ruin their stay; the hotel complex would be overrun with hordes of journalists, Air traffic services - the airspace would have to be closed, and the parents and friends, - 'people might think that the parents and their friends were suspects and, of course, the field mustn't be left open for that kind of deliberation'.

Given how PdL was turned into a media 'circus' and remained that way for quite some time, it must have been very unpleasant for those on holiday at the time.

Maybe it was MW themselves who refused to allow a recon to be undertaken on the premise that enough disruption had been caused already.

Who knows.

I wish we knew what powers the police have regarding conducting crime reconstructions - in other words, do they have to seek the consent of everyone affected/involved? (it would seem to be so, given what happened in 2008) or can they demand that

It sounds like someone objected to the disruption it could cause the holiday makers and the potential increase in media presence (sounds like Mark Warner to me) and someone was worried it could make the parents and friends look like suspects (unlikely to be a concern of the police).

And yes, I agree it would have been dreadful for the local people and holiday-makers trying to go about their business at the time.

maive wrote:

Wintabells wrote:

I understand your way of thinking, of course, but I can't see why the Portuguese government would be reluctant for a recon. on the basis that it could lead the public to think that the McCanns and their friends were suspects. They'd all been interviewed by the police several times, they were the key witnesses in the affair and it's completely normal to hold a reconstruction of a crime, which involves the innocent passers-by (which is what they claim to be).

I understand very well your point and I agree actually. But the big picture that I see is that from day 1, the PJ was unable to investigate that case as they wanted. I see political pressure right from the beginning, starting with the way that the case was handled, that the McCanns were treated, that GA was treated and the way the McCanns were allowed to escape.. And all those objections against that reconstruction (May) confirm my opinion..

Wintabells wrote:

On the other hand, we have read it reported that four months later, KMc's reaction to being told she was an arguida was along the lines of 'what will my parents think?' so I can see a consistency between the two reactions, i.e. 'if we take part in a reconstruction, people might think we're guilty of something'.

It makes sense, Wintabells, they could be that source!

So do you both believe that any political pressure subsided the following year which resulted in the recon requests for the Tapas group

Fern wrote:

So do you both believe that any political pressure subsided the following year which resulted in the recon requests for the Tapas group

I haven't mentioned political pressure.

However, I believe that Gordon Brown exerted pressure at various points to get the McC's as much assistance as possible in their quest to find their 'abducted' daughter.

It seems to me a recon was suggested in May 2007 and it was dumped due to lack of co-operation by the parties involved. The same thing happened in 2008. The only people who were possibly obliged to attend in 2008 were the McC's due to their arguido status, but without their non-arguido friends, the thing wouldn't have worked.

Fern wrote:
So do you both believe that any political pressure subsided the following year which resulted in the recon requests for the Tapas group

I think that these problems (Tapas 7 objections) to make that reconstruction (2008) were a convenient reason to shelve the case..

Look at the scenario :

- 2007 : All the group is in PDL, the McCanns as witnesses, fresh memories, apartment 5A sealed - ideal conditions yet no reconstruction
- 2008 : All the group gone, the Mccanns arguidos - conditions not so good - so although they sent those requests, it seems to me they knew that the reconstruction would never happen. And then.. Oh! Surprise! Case shelved..

Don't know if this has been mentioned but this programme is on Next Monday April 30th. Its the repeat that is on May 3rd

Just reading the comments on the FB page "The first Panorama played drug music in the background and showed pampas grass ...which is supposed to represent swingers". Interesting. Music is always used to tell the story in any documentary, TV show or film

jd16 wrote:Don't know if this has been mentioned but this programme is on Next Monday April 30th. Its the repeat that is on May 3rd

Just reading the comments on the FB page "The first Panorama played drug music in the background and showed pampas grass ...which is supposed to represent swingers". Interesting. Music is always used to tell the story in any documentary, TV show or film

That sort of thing always goes straight past me, if it had been a bowl with different house keys in it I might just get it, but even then - yuk - swinging, how boring does your life have to be?

Didn't the Mcs themselves say a reconstruction would only 'create a media circus' which is odd considering their main channel of publicity was through the media.

In any case all this talk of closing airspace is rubbish, the only areas required for a reconstruction was the tapas bar, reception area and the side street leading upto apartment 5a, the media could have been ordered to stay away. It could have been timed so that reception was used when no holidaymakers were arriving or departing they have records for that, sometimes on resorts reception isn't always open anyway.

I have a memory of Gerry saying they saw no point in a reconstruction unless it was a "Crimewatch" type production where it would go out to millions. When the PJ said no, it would be just a localised un-televised reconstruction GMcC said it would be of no use. This was in relation to the first proposed reconstruction.

Am I dreaming this or does anyone else remember ???

mossman wrote:I have a memory of Gerry saying they saw no point in a reconstruction unless it was a "Crimewatch" type production where it would go out to millions. When the PJ said no, it would be just a localised un-televised reconstruction GMcC said it would be of no use. This was in relation to the first proposed reconstruction.

Am I dreaming this or does anyone else remember ???

No mossman you are not dreaming it,
Gerry did indeed request a 'crimewatch'
type format.
And the tapas crew asked if 'actors' could
be used instead of them.
The mind boggles.

marxman wrote:

mossman wrote:I have a memory of Gerry saying they saw no point in a reconstruction unless it was a "Crimewatch" type production where it would go out to millions. When the PJ said no, it would be just a localised un-televised reconstruction GMcC said it would be of no use. This was in relation to the first proposed reconstruction.

Am I dreaming this or does anyone else remember ???

No mossman you are not dreaming it,
Gerry did indeed request a 'crimewatch'
type format.
And the tapas crew asked if 'actors' could
be used instead of them.
The mind boggles.

Thank you

Such is their celebrity status these days, they would want an appearance fee to appear in a reconstruction now.

The more you read the more you wonder why everyone pandered to their demands. Here was a little child reported missing by her parents who left
her alone every night and insisted she was abducted . After 2 weeks with everyone around the World on the look-out for her and proof that the
Tapas Group statementss did not tally , wouldn't you think the Police would have called for a recon there and then , not a year later.

Panda wrote:

The more you read the more you wonder why everyone pandered to their demands. Here was a little child reported missing by her parents who left
her alone every night and insisted she was abducted . After 2 weeks with everyone around the World on the look-out for her and proof that the
Tapas Group statementss did not tally , wouldn't you think the Police would have called for a recon there and then , not a year later.

The McCanns PR machine made it seem as if they knew everyone from Gordon Brown to Prince Charles, and were so well connected they even had Rome preparing itself for their visit with the Pope.

That's how they got over, and that's how they got out..... in the beginning (imo). But that all changed once people realised they were just a tacky pair of child neglecters.

pennylane wrote:

Panda wrote:

The more you read the more you wonder why everyone pandered to their demands. Here was a little child reported missing by her parents who left
her alone every night and insisted she was abducted . After 2 weeks with everyone around the World on the look-out for her and proof that the
Tapas Group statementss did not tally , wouldn't you think the Police would have called for a recon there and then , not a year later.

The McCanns PR machine made it seem as if they knew everyone from Gordon Brown to Prince Charles, and were so well connected they even had Rome preparing itself for their visit with the Pope.

That's how they got over, and that's how they got out..... in the beginning (imo). But that all changed once people realised they were just a tacky pair of child neglecters.

Morning pennylane, to be fair, if it wasn't for the internet we wouldn't know half as much as we do , on holiday a couple of years ago a few of us sitting around the Pool and the conversation turned to the McCanns . They were amazed at what I had to say and thought it shameful the amount of
protection they received . One of the girls asked why they were still putting themselves in the limelight if they are guilty ....that's quite a hard question
to answer,.

qote..........One of the girls asked why they were still putting themselves in the limelight if they are guilty ....that's quite a hard question.............unquote


Probably working on the assumption that "hidden in full view" makes things harder to find. It seems to work.

Such is their celebrity status these days, they would want an appearance fee to appear in a reconstruction now

Funny as this comment is, it is sadly probably very true too! Sickening

mara thon wrote:qote..........One of the girls asked why they were still putting themselves in the limelight if they are guilty ....that's quite a hard question.............unquote


Probably working on the assumption that "hidden in full view" makes things harder to find. It seems to work.

I agree with this. Also they are in too deep now to make a 'u turn' imo.

Panda wrote:

pennylane wrote:

Panda wrote:

The more you read the more you wonder why everyone pandered to their demands. Here was a little child reported missing by her parents who left
her alone every night and insisted she was abducted . After 2 weeks with everyone around the World on the look-out for her and proof that the
Tapas Group statementss did not tally , wouldn't you think the Police would have called for a recon there and then , not a year later.

The McCanns PR machine made it seem as if they knew everyone from Gordon Brown to Prince Charles, and were so well connected they even had Rome preparing itself for their visit with the Pope.

That's how they got over, and that's how they got out..... in the beginning (imo). But that all changed once people realised they were just a tacky pair of child neglecters.

Morning pennylane, to be fair, if it wasn't for the internet we wouldn't know half as much as we do , on holiday a couple of years ago a few of us sitting around the Pool and the conversation turned to the McCanns . They were amazed at what I had to say and thought it shameful the amount of
protection they received . One of the girls asked why they were still putting themselves in the limelight if they are guilty ....that's quite a hard question
to answer,.

Morning Panda,

Remind them of Jeffrey Archer and Siôn Jenkins

Lots of criminals push for the limelight - because they hope naive people, the likes of which you met on holiday, will take that as a sign of innocence. Anybody with a grain of street sense knows otherwise!

Gerry and his confusion tactics, bullish friends, diplomatic "contacts", his police manuals, the worlds press, his fame hungry family and he and wife's downright rudeness towards the Portugese.

For all of these reasons we will never know what exactly the PJ tried to do or wanted to do during the course of the investigation.

The McCanns from the very first day have refused to respect the Portugese system and their way of working. They had their family at home on tv bleat on endlessly about judicial secrecy until we were all blue in the face from it.

They have taken every opportunity to discredit those hard working police people, who must have been absolutely gob smacked that children had been left alone to begin with.

I have never seen that pair show an ounce of gratitude towards any of the Portugese who were involved at that time. All we are told is that they did not search. How would Kate know what was going on outside, sitting pretty in her apartment, working really hard at co-ordinating outfits for the interviews they knew would soon follow.

What about the people of PDL, when have the McCanns ever apologised to them for bringing this horror story into their lives ? Oh no, Gerry happily goes back to make his fictional documentary, ensuring it all starts all over again for those Portugese people. Every single time they appear on tv to do one of their tear jerking interviews, they drag PDL back into the limelight, as always for all of the wrong reasons.

The PJ could have asked for 100 reconstructions, it would have made no difference. The McCanns would not have co-operated, they would have tried to obstruct it from every angle.

The PJ could finally breathe when they and their travelling band wagon left Portugal. They were finally able to get their heads down and do some work. I bet that is when the most significant work was done, between the big fan fared departure and the shelving of the file.

Sorry for ranting but they make me so cross.