Digging to start NEXT WEEK!

I find this sentence strange:
 
"...that the body was abandoned near the Ocean Club afterwards."
 
If, in such circumstances ( a burglary that went "terrrribly" wrong, SY dixit) the body was abandoned and not buried, wich is impossible ( no time, no tool, no reason to take a corpse outside the flat to abandon it immediatly), people and dogs taking part to the searches shortly after, would have find it soon or later.
Probably an expression invented by the journalist?

LJC wrote:

AnnaEsse wrote:I think one of the most incriminating details would be if Maddie's body were to be found not wearing those pyjamas.

Yes indeed.  And her pyjamas must be somewhere else?

I really believe if the day comes when they find Madeleine, she will have her pink blanket with her.

frencheuropean wrote:I find this sentence strange:
 
"...that the body was abandoned near the Ocean Club afterwards."
 
If, in such circumstances ( a burglary that went "terrrribly" wrong, SY dixit) the body was abandoned and not buried, wich is impossible ( no time, no tool, no reason to take a corpse outside the flat to abandon it immediatly), people and dogs taking part to the searches shortly after, would have find it soon or later.
Probably an expression invented by the journalist?

Hi frencheuropean , it has been said that OPORTO will not share the information they have from their investigation with SY, but would SY pay for this Radar equipment , Portugese Police to dig up 3 areas. hire of Aircraft etc if they didn't think it was important? The Portugese think Madeleine's body was placed in a holdall and thrown from a cliff into the Sea.....a Resident of PDL told me that when we sat next to each other on a Coach years ago.  

This is an article from the Express circa Sept 2008 which is quite interesting with regards to what the Police thought about the disposal of the body.
There is some information regarding the mileage on the hire car at that time.



POLICE in Portugal believe Madeleine McCann may be buried at one of the holiest sites of the Catholic Church

Officers were last night planning to launch a search at Fatima in central Portugal.

Devout Kate and Gerry McCann made a pilgrimage there three weeks after their daughter vanished from their holiday apartment in the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz.

Just four days later they rented a car which police believe the couple used to return to the shrine and dispose of Madeleine’s body.

The search in Fatima is said to be one of a series to be carried out over the next few days. It comes as it was claimed yesterday that Kate could be charged with her daughter’s murder.

In just five weeks the McCanns clocked up 1,709 miles in the car and police want to question them about every journey they made. The couple claim they ran up the mileage making

frequent return trips from the resort to Faro Airport 55 miles away.

They were picking up and dropping off family and friends who stayed with them as they mounted their campaign to find Madeleine, who vanished on May 3.

But a police source told the Daily Express yesterday that officers were not satisfied with the explanation the McCanns gave them.

They now believe the couple made the 500-mile return trip to Fatima to dispose of their daughter’s body.

It is one of the few places in Portugal outside the Algarve that the McCanns are known to have visited in the days after Madeleine disappeared.

Officers want to examine a pasture called the Cova da Iria near the village of Aljustrel a mile from Fatima – where the Virgin Mary is said to have appeared to three children in 1917.

Police believe Madeleine died as a result of an accident and her body was hidden before being moved in the McCanns’ hire car.

They are convinced Gerry and Kate McCann’s devotion to their faith played a key role in how they supposedly disposed of the body.

The McCanns’ visit to Fatima on May 23 was the first of a series of organised trips to raise awareness for their campaign to find their missing daughter.

By the time they signed a rental agreement on a Renault with Budget Rentacar at Faro Airport on May 27, Fatima was one of the few places in Portugal they had been to. Detectives are said to be “very concerned” about the high mileage of the hire car and believe the couple may have travelled a long distance to dispose of Madeleine’s body.

A source close to the investigation said: “We are looking for a final resting place for the little girl.

“We now believe the movements of the car in the days after it was hired are the key to solving the mystery.

“Everywhere they have been will be thoroughly examined. They did not know Portugal well. The only familiar places will be the ones they visited.

“They have said the only places they drove to were around the resort and to and from the airport but that does not account for the mileage they did in the car.”

Body fluids with an 88 per cent DNA match to Madeleine were found in the spare tyre well under the carpet in the boot of the Renault along with clumps of the youngster’s hair.

During police interviews the McCanns were shown a video of a sniffer dog “going crazy’’ when it approached their hire car.

Police had previously been working on the theory that Madeleine’s body was dumped in the sea near the beach in Praia da Luz.

The British dogs brought in by South Yorkshire Police allegedly detected a trail of death from the family’s Ocean Club apartment down to the sea front.

Experts in tidal movements were called in to try to establish scientifically where a body may have been washed up. Another theory was that Madeleine’s body was placed in a sack and weighed down with rocks.

tanszi wrote:annaesse that has always been my thinking that if Maddie was buried in PdL, or in her first hiding place,  she will have been removed. jimo.

I'm not convinced, though, that she has been buried in the area. I keep coming back to how 2 doctors might dispose of a small body.

The phone pings are pretty compelling evidence. I wonder where else they're going to look?

Panda wrote:

LJC wrote:

Panda wrote:I hate to suggest this dig will not be successful , but one, no two thoughts niggle me.

1. If the search does not provide any evidence of Madeleine , the McCanns can still claim abduction.

2. This result would negate Amaral's claim that Madeleine died in 5a ....it"s the "show me the body" claim Duarte would make.

Obviously we will just have to wait and see and I hope evidence is found , if not , the Portugese will close the case .

Final findings may depend on the intelligence rather than on whether or not they find Madeleine's body.  I personally think that both British and Portuguese would conclude that she is dead if that is what their intelligence is pointing to, even if they don't find her. It may not provide concrete proof as to who killed her or if it was an accidental death and concealment, but just because there is no body found does not mean they cannot draw the conclusion that she is dead.  Without knowing what intelligence they hold it is impossible for any of us to foresee what the final conclusion will be though.

I think Mr Amaral can hold his head up, which he does do to be fair to him.  I do not think there was ever enough evidence to bring about charges against anyone in 2007 but am hoping with all my fingers crossed that whatever intelligence they are now acting upon it will bring about the conclusion of Madeleine being alive or otherwise whether she is found or not.

I know what you are saying LJC but surely there has to be closure on this case come what may. The Portugese have been ridiculed, forced to liaise with SY and , received no help from the Parents of the missing child and if this Radar and other equipment shows nothing to suggest Madeleine was buried somewhere....the Portugese MUST say enough is enough, Their Police have also spent a lot of money on this case and will surely want to get back to some kind of normality as will the Residents of PDL...fancy a trip over there when the search starts??  

I think there will be conclusion, but whether it equals closure is another matter.  The Portuguese have not been ridiculed.  They had a decision to make about re-opening their own investigation, a decision made by a Court in Portugal and about co-operating with SY's investigation. I'm not sure the parents have co-operated with the SY investigation either, that they have added anything new to it and SY are only working with the files of the original investigation, which they did not co-operate with.  

Even if the digging and equipment used does not find her body, the very fact that they are digging is as a result of intelligence received, probably fresh intelligence which just happens to strengthen the original intelligence.   That intelligence is suggesting a body by the sounds of things and if it is a credible source of intelligence that is why the Portuguese have authorised this digging and have issued search warrants.  

If nothing is found I still don't see why a conclusion cannot be reached that she is in fact dead.  That will not please the McCanns or bring closure to them personally but a declaration that she is dead may bring closure of sorts to many of us who have believed all along that she is dead.

What it may not do though is implicate any particular person/s in her death.  

However, speculation is crossing bridges before we get there.  Suffice to say for now I feel that the intelligence is what is leading to this dig.

I feel hopeful that something of importance has led to this dig. I am remembering reading years ago the Portuguese police had items in their possession. I wonder if the latest DNA technology could mean these items reveal answers which they couldn't before. If nothing comes of this then really I think that's about the last hope.

11,000 extra on the clock makes me think they won't find her in PDL....unless they were looking or they came full circle on purpose to throw people off the scent

They might find items of interest in PDL. I think that's what they could be looking for. Only a guess of course.

MaryB wrote:They might find items of interest in PDL.  I think that's what they could be looking for.  Only a guess of course.

Yes agree, we do not know what intelligence they have so that is highly likely.

Well if SY have useful intelligence on this that will be a first. Judging by the cock up so called leads they have had so far.
I don't see it myself.

fuzeta wrote:Well if SY have useful intelligence on this that will be a first.  Judging by the cock up so called  leads they have had so far.
I don't see it myself.

On the other hand, would they want to make complete fools of themselves by searching areas without intelligence?

They had to persuade the Portuguese Court to permit this dig, so they must have had reasonable grounds.

I don't know Jassi. Last time they wanted to interview three burglars and have details of their bank accounts. I just think this dig is to say, 'well we have had a look and turned over a few stones' Then they will wind it up.

fuzeta wrote:I don't know Jassi. Last time they wanted to interview three burglars and have details of their bank accounts.  I just think this dig is to say, 'well we have had a look and turned over a few stones'  Then they will wind it up.

Did SY ever actually say that, or was it some helpful unnamed 'source' feeding the newspapers?

Well I know that they wanted to interview three burglars but as far as the bank accounts were concerned I would have to check that out and I am too tired tonight. I will have a look tomorrow for my own interest in if they said it or not.

A crack team, including a  a forensic archaeologist!!

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccanns-parents-vow-not-3618722#ixzz332uWKKIU

Madeleine McCann's parents vow not to return to Portugal unless new search finds daughter's DNA
May 28, 2014 19:31 By Tom Pettifor
Kate and Gerry McCann have “no intention” of being in Portugal’s Praia da Luz while forensic archaeologists and sniffer dogs scour the area

Not going back: The McCanns will avoid the grim task
The parents of Madeleine McCann will not return to the resort where they last saw their daughter next week when British police will start digging for clues.

The significant new ground searches could begin as early as Monday, according to Portuguese sources.

But Kate and Gerry McCann have “no intention” of being in Portugal’s Praia da Luz while the grim task is being undertaken, a close pal revealed yesterday.

A UK crack team – believed to include a forensic archaeologist, sniffer dogs and ground penetrating radar - will scour an area yards from the family’s flat in Praia da Luz.

Scotland Yard are focussing on two more sites close by as they prepare for an operation lasting between four and six days.

Portuguese officers will supervise the work and retain overall management of the search.

But Kate and Gerry McCann have decided to stay away, a close pal has revealed.

The friend said: “They welcome the new phase of the investigation and hope it may lead them a step closer to finding out what happened to their daughter. They will be kept informed by Scotland Yard of any developments but they have no intention of going there. It is the last place they would want to be while digging takes place.

“It will be a hugely emotional time for Madeleine’s parents but it is a scenario they know needs to happen. They will only go to Portugal, God forbid, if any remains matching her DNA were found.”

Former GP Kate and heart doctor Gerry, both 45, believe Maddie – who vanished seven years ago and would now be aged 11 – could still be alive. Gerry recently told supporters in his home village of Rothley, Leics, that they had been buoyed up by the Met Police investigation.

During a prayer gathering for his daughter he said: “They are going back out to Portugal very soon. They are chipping away and there is new evidence. We are going to continue hoping we get a happy outcome – and one day we will know what’s happening.”

Kate added: “We are still battling, still hoping, still searching for Madeleine.”

It comes less than a week after Scotland Yard chiefs said the search for Madeleine would enter a “substantial” new phase in the coming weeks.

Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley confirmed: “There is going to be a substantial phase of operational activity involving Portuguese police with British police in support.

“In a major investigation with multiple lines of inquiry and hypotheses, you have to systematically work through them all.

“This is a phase of activity based on those principles.”

Search warrants permitting work to take place on the privately-owned land had already been issued, it has been reported.

One plot is thought to be fenced-off waste land a two minute walk from Madeleine’s apartment which police hired a Portuguese air force helicopter to fly over earlier this month so they could take pictures. Diggers and other equipment are expected to be hired locally by the Met.

Roland Leon / Daily MirrorPraia da LuzNo stone unturned: Diggers are set to be hired in the search of Praia da Luz
Scotland Yard have sent formal requests to search two other plots of land - making a total of five - but the letters have not yet reached police in the Algarve capital Faro.

The “substantial” work Met Police have referred to is also expected to include interviews with new suspects identified by Operation Grange officers heading a British probe into Madeleine’s disappearance.

Several are understood to be ex-Ocean Club employees. The Yard has not ruled out the possibility Madeleine is still alive, but has prompted speculation with its dig requests that they now believe the youngster was kidnapped and her body dumped near her holiday resort.

They are linking 18 incidents when a male intruder broke into British families’ holiday villas between 2004 and 2010 and sexually assaulted nine girls with three near-misses.

One of the victims, a ten-year-old girl, was assaulted in Praia da Luz two years before Madeleine vanished from the resort.

Portuguese police heading a separate investigation into Madeleiene’s disappearance have not ruled out the involvement of a former Ocean Club worker who died in a tractor accident in 2009.

Euclides Monteiro’s widow Luisa Rodrigues has insisted her recovering drug addict partner, a convicted burglar, had nothing to do with Madeleene’s disappearance and was cleared of any involvement in the sex attacks after police questioning the year before he died.

Praia da Luz parish council leader Victor Mata has attacked the police excavations plans.

Claiming locals were “fed up with the Maddie case” and most “didn’t care anymore”, he told a Portuguese paper soon after the first reports of the dig plans emerged: “It’s bad for tourism. It’s beggars belief they’re preparing to open up holes here a month before summer.”

The McCann’s spokesman Clarence Mitchell yesterday refused to comment on the forthcoming police activity, saying: “I cannot and will not discuss Operation Grange.”

Thanks wjk.

... a close pal has revealed.   

The McCann’s spokesman Clarence Mitchell yesterday refused to comment on the forthcoming police activity, saying: “I cannot and will not discuss Operation Grange.”
 
Clarrie's been gagged. He's the spokesman who can't speak.
Unless it's in the guise of 'a close pal' or 'a family friend' doing the gloopy, emotional bits ...

No more fanciful news from Fantasy Island then ......

fab post almostgothic

fuzeta wrote:I don't know Jassi. Last time they wanted to interview three burglars and have details of their bank accounts.  I just think this dig is to say, 'well we have had a look and turned over a few stones'  Then they will wind it up.

I don't think the Portuguese Court would have issued search warrants, which is an official administrative procedure the final decision of which is outside the jurisdiction of SY; I doubt the Portuguese would grant such warrants just to satisfy SY's urge to say, 'Well we have had a look and turned over a few stones'.

Just because search warrants were not granted for homes of suspects does not mean it was wrong of SY to ask in the first place; SY have a job to do and all the Portuguese Courts appear to be saying on the suspect home searches is this: 'Present us with more evidence if you want a warrant'.

However, the Courts do seem satisfied with the application for the digs and we do not know what SY presented to the Court to gain this authorisation; we cannot comment on SY's leads thus far, for the truth is we don't know apart from certain speculation in the press on certain aspects, which may be reliable or otherwise.

Portuguese police visit waste ground at centre of Madeleine McCann search
Gerard Couzens         Published: 29 May 2014  Updated: 10:13, 29 May 2014

Quote (my bold):

It had been thought British police would start their search at fenced-off land next to the Ocean Club holiday complex where Madeleine was staying with her family.

But the Portuguese detectives were spotted going over wasteland next to 25th of April Street, a short walk west from the centre of Praia da Luz.

The large area of scrubland overlooking the Med is the only site British police have so far been given permission to search, Portuguese media reported.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/madeleine-mccann-search-latest-portugal-police-praia-da-luz-9451031.html

This is interesting in that the Public Prosecutor would not give warrants for house searches without a solid foundation for the searches. Permission has been given for this dig. So, does that mean there is a solid foundation for the dig in that area? Have the British police provided significant reasons for believing that something could be found?

if they do find something during the dig i really hope its not going to be something burried during these last 7 years to try and fit a patsy up , i hope that some other counrty will be watching on and any tests done , outside the uk

AnnaEsse wrote:This is interesting in that the Public Prosecutor would not give warrants for house searches without a solid foundation for the searches. Permission has been given for this dig. So, does that mean there is a solid foundation for the dig in that area? Have the British police provided significant reasons for believing that something could be found?

I doubt the Portuguese would accept anything less than significant reasons.

LJC wrote:

AnnaEsse wrote:This is interesting in that the Public Prosecutor would not give warrants for house searches without a solid foundation for the searches. Permission has been given for this dig. So, does that mean there is a solid foundation for the dig in that area? Have the British police provided significant reasons for believing that something could be found?

I doubt the Portuguese would accept anything less than significant reasons.  

I think there must be new leads.