Iraq.................

Well i'm certainly not going to let any threat to the West bother me.Chances are they will be fighting amongst themselves for another 1400 years.
I am more concerned about the threat of extermination of the minority groups actually.

ISIS HAS URGED THE RESIDENTS OF FERGUSON TO JOIN THEM.

katertaif wrote:Iran will be quite happy with this. It is taking the attention of the west away from their nuclear interests!!!

You mentioned Sukhoi jet aircraft. I wonder what happened to those the Russians gave Iraq, or the ones Iran said it would refurbish for them.

All the present upsurge in activity suggests that there will be more than a few attempted terror attacks.  in certainly the immediate future. I only wish they could be so glibly reduced to hardly more than a nuisance.

As for the aircraft i am not sure.Did Iraqi defectors fly them to Iran some years ago ? Now the strange bedfellows have given them back to help beat off the bogeymen once they are refitted,or something like that ?

It was all well documented at the time, and has been mentioned on this forum more recently. During the first gulf war. Iraqi pilots did indeed choose to fly to Iran. Ostensibly to prevent their aircraft from falling into coalition hands.

At the time of course the US workhorses were the F15 (Eagle) and the F14 (Tomcat). since supplanted by the F18 (Hornet) and so would not have been interested in the relatively inferior Sukhoi of the time.

Some weeks ago, the Iranians, in the wake of the Russians giving/selling more Sukhoi's to the Iraqis offered to refurbish those aircraft, which must be antiquated by now anyway.

They have never been heard of since. That was my question, where are they? What use are the Iraqis making of them? If any at all. Possibly the parts are no longer available.

Not so strange bedfellows in this instance. The majority of Iranians are Shi'ite (about 90%) The terrorists are in the main Sunni. Whereas the Iraqi government is also Shi'ite. Iran therefore has a vested interest. They do not want or need a Sunni enclave calling itself a Caliphate on their borders.

Lioned wrote:Well i'm certainly not going to let any threat to the West bother me.Chances are they will be fighting amongst themselves for another 1400 years.
I am more concerned about the threat of extermination of the minority groups actually.

More years ago than I sometimes like to remember, we were coming back from Technical college. We had just been learning about the effects of Current v Voltage on the human body. Some of us said it was the current that killed you, some said no the voltage did. A man got on the bus at ICI and sat behind us. Suddenly he said What's the difference, you're still dead. Of course apart from being mildly amusing, he was right!!

The same applies whether the terrorists mount a full scale attack in Mainland Britain, or a 7/7 style terrorist outrage. Perhaps a Madrid style atrocity

When you say you aren't going to let it bother you, I applaud you in that sentiment, and echo it. We cannot, and must not allow terrorists to dictate the terms on which we live. You are right in that.

Of course, there is at the moment no chance of any large scale atrocity. Our security services are far too efficient, under budgeted as they are. The point being certain factions will redouble their efforts to plan an atrocity. They only have to get lucky every now and again, while our security has to be 100% efficient 100% of the time. 9/11 showed that a few twisted minds were able to kill out of all proportion to their numbers.

Even arrested and subsequently jailed is for them a victory of sorts. It gives them a platform in Court, and the opportunity to spread their loathsome creed when in Jail.

As i have said i am not suggesting they be underestimated as we know they can be strong and fearsome on their own ground as history will show in Afghanistan.
Also as marauding hordes they will have some success sweeping through the outer areas villages and towns of a country with an army thats never been particularly good at standing its ground.

They are medieval and made up of disfunctional mostly young men who clearly have bought into a life of promises rather than a life of education,responsibility and paying the bills,the later particularly applies to those radicalised from the West.

They will offer no threat to the West in either the short ,medium or long term other than random terrorist attacks as we have seen.
Not until such time as the Sunni and Shiite resolve their differences,is that likely ? In the meantime they will never set foot outside their comfort zone in any kind of force,and when they do they will soon run back when faced with a more organised force.

As far as the West is concerned i never see it as anything more than containment and Humanitarian aid.

Our Intelligence services clearly have a job to do.

I agree with much of what you say, but when you say they offer no threat. Remember the whole concept of flying to especially the US has become more time consuming,, and expensive to police. Terrorist activity has forced us to do that.

That these people are medieval, I could not agree more. You only have to look at this Sunni v Shi'ite schism. The corresponding argument would be us in full scale war over whether our monarch belongs to the house of Windsor or whether the Plantagenets should still be the royal family.

Ludicrous, but that is; stripped to essentials what it's about. When Mohammed (the first Caliph) died, there were two contenders. As far as those who later became Shi'ites. The one who got the job was Abu Bakr as Siddiq, whereas they wanted Ali Ibn Abi Talib. There were two more Caliphs after Abu Bakr before Ali got it, and was assassinated shortly into his reign.

Shi'ite is taken from Shia which means party of Ali. That's where they get their name from. Siddiq by the way means Friend in Arabic. he certainly proved to be no friend.

Lioned wrote:As i have said i am not suggesting they be underestimated as we know they can be strong and fearsome on their own ground as history will show in Afghanistan.
Also as marauding hordes they will have some success sweeping through the outer areas villages and towns of a country with an army thats never been particularly good at standing its ground.

They are medieval and made up of disfunctional mostly young men who clearly have bought into a life of promises rather than a life of education,responsibility and paying the bills,the later particularly applies to those radicalised from the West.

They will offer no threat to the West in either the short ,medium or long term other than random terrorist attacks as we have seen.
Not until such time as the Sunni and Shiite resolve their differences,is that likely ? In the meantime they will never set foot outside their comfort zone in any kind of force,and when they do they will soon run back when faced with a more organised force.

As far as the West is concerned i never see it as anything more than containment and Humanitarian aid.

Our Intelligence services clearly have a job to do.

I couldn't agree more with you, Lioned. But I bet this scaremongering trend is very appreciated by the European governments in general. While we are discussing and fearing the 'savage Muslim radicals' and their plan to conquer us all, we have less time to discuss our corrupt governments and their plans to keep enriching the already rich and impoverishing the already poor and retired.

IS can only murder women, children and babies.


Put them against the SAS and they would shit their pants.

They would shit their pants,they are idiots led by cowards.How many times have we seen these great warriors run and hide when faced with a more organised and disciplined force.
Their leaders you will never see leading from the front,they run and hide in their holes in the ground or their caves up in the hills and then beg for their lives ! Despite the promised land and 72 virgins beckoning they still have human frailties.

And yes Claudia the Governments of the West,UK and US in particular love to have a bogeyman to drum up fear and distract from domestic politics !
Does anyone with half a brain cell really think the 'Muslims' are coming to get us ?

For hundreds of years the 'Muslims',Sunnis and Shiites and others have been fighting amongst themselves throughout the old Ottoman and Persian empires.
How are they going to mount a coordinated attack on World domination.Utterly ridiculous.

Anti Muslim feeling has been building in the UK since New Labour completely fck'd up the countrys immigration policy.
So now we have areas of the country where white British are the minority and understandably,but illogically, some now blame the 'Muslims'.

Well i got news for you.There are about 1.6 Billion of them Nasty Muslims around the World but as far as i can remember there has not yet been any attempt at World domination !
So which group will be landing on our shores first, the Sunnis or the Shiites ?

What we need to be concerned about are the dysfunctional and disillusioned young British men who opt out of a responsible existence and turn to Islam on a promise of a better life (and afterlife) and buy themselves a one way ticket to Turkey.
They are potentially tomorrows terrorists and need to be rounded up if they attempt to come back here.

Lioned wrote:They would shit their pants,they are idiots led by cowards.How many times have we seen these great warriors run and hide when faced with a more organised and disciplined force.
Their leaders you will never see leading from the front,they run and hide in their holes in the ground or their caves up in the hills and then beg for their lives ! Despite the promised land and 72 virgins beckoning they still have human frailties.

And yes Claudia the Governments of the West,UK and US in particular love to have a bogeyman to drum up fear and distract from domestic politics !
Does anyone with half a brain cell really think the 'Muslims' are coming to get us ?

For hundreds of years the 'Muslims',Sunnis and Shiites and others have been fighting amongst themselves throughout the old Ottoman and Persian empires.
How are they going to mount a coordinated attack on World domination.Utterly ridiculous.

Anti Muslim feeling has been building in the UK since New Labour completely fck'd up the countrys immigration policy.
So now we have areas of the country where white British are the minority and understandably,but illogically, some now blame the 'Muslims'.

Well i got news for you.There are about 1.6 Billion of them Nasty Muslims around the World but as far as i can remember there has not yet been any attempt at World domination !
So which group will be landing on our shores first, the Sunnis or the Shiites ?

What we need to be concerned about are the dysfunctional and disillusioned young British men who opt out of a responsible existence and turn to Islam on a promise of a better life (and afterlife) and buy themselves a one way ticket to Turkey.
They are potentially tomorrows terrorists and need to be rounded up if they attempt to come back here.

        

The answer to your first question: yes, they do.
The answer to your second question: they aren't.   

I should add that the vast majority of Muslims are hard working and peaceful people,as are the vast majority of Christians and Jews and everyone else.
I am talking above about the radicalised fundamentalist jihads that wage war amongst each other.

Lioned wrote:I should add that the vast majority of Muslims are hard working and peaceful people,as are the vast majority of Christians and Jews and everyone else.
I am talking above about the radicalised fundamentalist jihads that wage war amongst each other.

Obviously.
And I happen to know that to be a fact as I was born in a European country with more than 4 million Muslims.

I would really like to believe that just random terror attacks are not to be considered a threat. The problem as I see it is that in random terror attacks innocent people are killed. and maimed. Mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, sons, daughters, sisters, brothers, cousins, aunties, uncles, friends, neighbours. I don't know about anyone else but to me that is something that matters greatly.

Of course it matters.

I am sad for those relatives and friends of Lee Rigby.And those that died in 7/7.

Lee Rigby was killed by a couple of nutters.

None of that will stop me going to London tomorrow and worrying about Muslims.

Lioned wrote:Of course it matters.

I am sad for those relatives and friends of Lee Rigby.And those that died in 7/7.

Lee Rigby was killed by a couple of nutters.

None of that will stop me going to London tomorrow and worrying about Muslims.

Exactly. Every life lost to violence matters. That is one thing. Another completely different is some wanting us to believe we are all doomed because the mean ugly Muslims are coming for us and we will end up all dead or kneeling down quoting the Qur'an. That is a scaremongering tactic designed to distract fools from the real problems so our governments can continue doing what they have been doing for quite some time. The far right Christian Anders Breivik killed more than 70 people due to his twisted convictions. Am I expected to fear Christians or refuse to visit Norway?

Lioned wrote:Of course it matters.

I am sad for those relatives and friends of Lee Rigby.And those that died in 7/7.

Lee Rigby was killed by a couple of nutters.

None of that will stop me going to London tomorrow and worrying about Muslims.

My son made me feel proud of him soon after 7/7. He told me that he had got on a London underground train and there were people standing when there was one seat in the carriage empty. That seat was next to a Muslim man and no one was taking it, so my son sat down. A good thing he did that day,

Ironically, this is a passage of what Wiki has on Breivik:

On the day of the attacks, Breivik electronically distributed a compendium of texts entitled 2083: A European Declaration of Independence, describing his far-right militant ideology. In them, he lays out a worldview encompassing Islamophobia, support for "far-right Zionism" and opposition to feminism. The texts call Islam and Cultural Marxism "the enemy", argue for the violent annihilation of "Eurabia" and multiculturalism and advocate deportation of all Muslims from Europe based on the model of the Beneš decrees. Breivik wrote that his main motive for the atrocities was to market his manifesto. wrote:

AnnaEsse wrote:

Lioned wrote:Of course it matters.

I am sad for those relatives and friends of Lee Rigby.And those that died in 7/7.

Lee Rigby was killed by a couple of nutters.

None of that will stop me going to London tomorrow and worrying about Muslims.

My son made me feel proud of him soon after 7/7. He told me that he had got on a London underground train and there were people standing when there was one seat in the carriage empty. That seat was next to a Muslim man and no one was taking it, so my son sat down. A good thing he did that day,

  
That's what happens when kids are raised right. You should be (and I'm sure you are) very proud.

Claudia79 wrote:

AnnaEsse wrote:

Lioned wrote:Of course it matters.

I am sad for those relatives and friends of Lee Rigby.And those that died in 7/7.

Lee Rigby was killed by a couple of nutters.

None of that will stop me going to London tomorrow and worrying about Muslims.

My son made me feel proud of him soon after 7/7. He told me that he had got on a London underground train and there were people standing when there was one seat in the carriage empty. That seat was next to a Muslim man and no one was taking it, so my son sat down. A good thing he did that day,

  
That's what happens when kids are raised right. You should be (and I'm sure you are) very proud.

I am, Claudia. It's the kind of thing my son would do and I admire him for it.

AnnaEsse wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:

AnnaEsse wrote:

Lioned wrote:Of course it matters.

I am sad for those relatives and friends of Lee Rigby.And those that died in 7/7.

Lee Rigby was killed by a couple of nutters.

None of that will stop me going to London tomorrow and worrying about Muslims.

My son made me feel proud of him soon after 7/7. He told me that he had got on a London underground train and there were people standing when there was one seat in the carriage empty. That seat was next to a Muslim man and no one was taking it, so my son sat down. A good thing he did that day,

  
That's what happens when kids are raised right. You should be (and I'm sure you are) very proud.

I am, Claudia. It's the kind of thing my son would do and I admire him for it.

It's exactly that kind of thing the world desperately needs. It would be such a better place.

Claudia79 wrote:

AnnaEsse wrote:

Claudia79 wrote:

AnnaEsse wrote:

Lioned wrote:Of course it matters.

I am sad for those relatives and friends of Lee Rigby.And those that died in 7/7.

Lee Rigby was killed by a couple of nutters.

None of that will stop me going to London tomorrow and worrying about Muslims.

My son made me feel proud of him soon after 7/7. He told me that he had got on a London underground train and there were people standing when there was one seat in the carriage empty. That seat was next to a Muslim man and no one was taking it, so my son sat down. A good thing he did that day,

  
That's what happens when kids are raised right. You should be (and I'm sure you are) very proud.

I am, Claudia. It's the kind of thing my son would do and I admire him for it.

It's exactly that kind of thing the world desperately needs. It would be such a better place.

Absolutely, Claudia.

fuzeta wrote:I would really like to believe that just random terror attacks are not to be considered a threat.    The problem as I see it is that in random terror attacks innocent people are killed. and maimed.  Mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, sons, daughters, sisters, brothers, cousins, aunties, uncles, friends, neighbours.   I don't know about anyone else but to me that is something that matters greatly.

Absolutely fuzeta. The self professed aim of these terror groups is a global Caliphate. That is their intention. They have stated this openly. Only this morning the US secretary of defence said IS is far beyond anything we've seen before. I doubt if he is scaremongering for the sake of it.

In response to why the sudden upsurge in terrorist activity after several hundred years. Islam stifles invention and innovation. After subjugating the tribes and peoples east of them Early Islam turned to the west. they were finally defeated outside the gates of Vienna. Compared to the west they had antiquated weaponry,, and I agree in part standing and slugging it out isn't their way.

Oil has changed all that. They don't have to invent anything any more, they can buy it.

I think your most telling point is that it doesn't matter whether or not someone is killed in a full scale war, or a "police action" or a drive by random shooting. They are still dead.

Of course there will be no pitched battles no one ever suggested there would be. there will be terrorist plots, and some may succeed. God forbid some; like 9/11 may be out of all proportion.

I have no problem with anyone other than British people living in the UK.



The problem I have is when they try to and have taken away our heritage.



Also...When they come up to you , which they have in my work, complaining about things that 'Insult and upset them'...trivial day to day things like last week.....can I go over to a couple off 15y olds and tell them to stop holding hands and canoodling in public as it is not right in front off children....no I bloody won't, they don't like it....tough.



That's what I don't like, forcing their opinions on ME....sorry but if some muslims have there way....women in this country would never see the light off day......simple as that.....I have spoken to women and children and the men, which I say good morning to...ignore me....that to me is disgusting.

kitti wrote:I have no problem with anyone other than British people living in the UK.



The problem I have is when they try to and have taken away our heritage.



Also...When they come up to you , which they have in my work, complaining about things that 'Insult and upset them'...trivial day to day things like last week.....can I go over to a couple off 15y olds and tell them to stop holding hands and canoodling in public as it is not right in front off children....no I bloody won't, they don't like it....tough.



That's what I don't like, forcing their opinions on ME....sorry but if some muslims have  there way....women in this country would never see the light off day......simple as that.....I have spoken to women and children and the men, which I say good morning to...ignore me....that to me is disgusting.

Other close-knit communities can be the same, kitti. There is a large Sikh community in my town and lots of Sikh families in my neighbourhood. For a long time, none of the Sikhs ever said hello to me on passing in the street until one day I was suddenly accepted and now have so many who speak to me and wave as I drive past.

What changed? Just something I did that must have got round the community. I was driving home one day and just round the corner from my house, I saw an Asian woman sitting on the grass verge, surrounded by supermarket bags. At the risk of interfering, I stopped to make sure the woman was OK and she said she couldn't go any further. The logical thing to do? I asked did she want a lift home, got her and her bags into the car and took her to her house.

Anyway, a couple of days later, a Sikh gentleman who had always blanked me when I said hello, came into my garden to chat! Then I found that others were waving and saying hello. I was suddenly part of my local community and it's lovely.