David Payne......

The Gasper Statement.....

Katherina Gaspar: Witness Statement PJ Files

Processos Vol XIII
Pages 3911 to 3915

Last Name: GASPAR
Forenames: KATHERINA ZACHARIAS
Date of Testimony: 16/05/2007
Number of Pages: 8

I give this declaration in relation to the MCCANN family who are currently in Portugal. The MCCANN family is composed of Gerry MCCANN, his wife, Kate MCCANN and their three children, Madeleine, age 4, and Sean and Amelie, who are twins and of 2 years of age.

As it is widely divulged, Madeleine is not with her family presently, and has been missing for the last two weeks.

I will begin by explaining that I am married to Savio Gaspar and that we have two daughters, E*****, who is almost 3 and I***** who is now one year old. I have been married to Savio for 11 years. I am a general practitioner like my husband. I met my husband when we were (page 1) working together in Exeter, around 14 years ago.

To explain in what way we met the MCCANN family, I would like to state that my husband knows Kate, given that both attended Dundee University between 1987 and 1992. At that time, Kate's name was Kate HEALY. I met Kate and Gerry for the occasion of their wedding, around 1998, in Liverpool. Both Savio and I went to the wedding because since Savio was an old friend of Kate, we were both invited to the event.

As far as I know Savio did not know Gerry before the abovementioned wedding. After that time, we met as friends and about three times we spent weekends away together. I would say become close to be intimate friends of Gerry and Kate.

I remember that in 2002 or 2003, Savio and I spent a weekend with Gerry and Kate in Devon. We maintained contact with each others via phone.

In 2002/2003 Savio and I were living in Birmingham and the MCCANNS in Leicester.

In September of 2005, Savio, I and Ellena, who at the time was 1 and a half years old, spent our holidays abroad, in Majorca. We went (page 2) on holidays with Kate, Gerry, and Madeleine, who should have been around 2 and a half years old and with the twins, Sean and Amelie, who were just months old. I remember that I was pregnant with Isabella.

On those holidays, with us, were as well friends of Gerry and Kate.

There was a couple, whose names were Dave and Fiona, and whose family name was PAYNE, I believe. I think that they were married and had one daughter with about 1 year old, named Lilly. I remember that on those holidays, Fiona was pregnant.

There was another couple, whose names were Tara and Stuart, and whose family name I cannot remember who were also on holidays with us. They had two boys, of 1 and 3 years old, whose names I do not remember. I did not know these two families until we went on holidays together. From memory, I think that it was David who organised these holidays and we all stayed together in a big house in Majorca.

We spent a week on holidays, however, the MCCANN family and the PAYNE family stayed for two weeks. I think that Tara and Stuart, and their two children, also stayed for just one week.

Two or three days had gone by, all of us staying in Majorca where, in general terms, we had fun (Page 3) with our children. Possibly around the fourth or fifth day abroad, I remember an incident that stayed recorded in my head. I say this in this way, because I have thought many times about the incident that I am about to describe.

One night, on holidays, the adults, that is, the couples that I mentioned, were on a patio outside of the house where we were staying. We had been eating and drinking.

I was seated between Dave and Gerry who I believe were both speaking about Madeleine. I don't remember the conversation in its entirety, but it seemed they were discussing a possible scenario. I remember Dave telling Gerry something like "she", referring to Madeleine, "would do this".

When he mentioned "this", Dave was sucking on one of his fingers, pushing it inside and outside his mouth, while with the other hand he made a circle around his nipple, in a circulatory movement over his clothes. This was done in a provocative manner and carried an explicit insinuation in relation to what he was saying and doing.

I remember that I was shocked at this, and looked at Gerry, and also at Dave, to see their reactions. I looked around (page 4) as if saying "did anyone else hear this, or was it just me". There was a nervous silence registered in all the conversations and afterwards, everyone began talking again.

I never spoke to anyone about this, but I always felt that it was very strange and it wasn’t something that someone should do or say.

Besides this [incident], I remember that Dave did the same thing once again. When I refer to this, I want to clarify that it was during a conversation in which he was talking about an imaginary situation, though I could not say exactly what about. I believe that he was talking about his own daughter, Lily, though I'm not certain. He put one of his fingers in his mouth and slide it in and out, while the other hand drew a circle around his nipple in a provocative and sexual manner. I believe that he was referring to the way that Lily, would behave or do it.

I believe that he did this later on, during the holidays, but I cannot be sure. The only time, besides this one, that I was with Dave and Fiona was several weeks after the holidays, when Savio and I met up with Gerry, Kate, Dave and Fiona at a restaurant in Leicester.

I am absolutely certain that he said what he said and that he did the gestures that I referred, but that could have occurred in the restaurant in Leicester, though (page five) I believe that it was later on, in Majorca. When I heard Dave doing and making this a second time, I took it more seriously.

I remember thinking whether he looked at the girls in a manner different from me or from the others. I imagined that maybe he had visited Internet sites related to small children. In short, I thought that he was interested child pornography on the internet.

During our holidays I was more attentive at bath time after hearing Dave saying that.

During our vacation in Majorca, it was the fathers who took care of the children's baths. I had the tendency to walk close to the bathroom, if it was Dave bathing the children. I remember telling Savio to be careful and to be there, in case it was Dave helping to bathe the children and, in particular, to my daughter E*****. I was very clear about this, as having heard him saying that had disturbed me, and I did not trust him to give bath to E***** alone.

When I heard Dave say that a second time, it reinforced what I already thought in relation to his thoughts about girls. During our stay in Majorca, Dave and his wife, Fiona, accompanied by this daughter Lily, took Madeleine (page 6) with them to spend the day, in order to give Kate and Gerry a bit of rest and time to be with the twins. When I say this, it is not that I was worried about Madeleine's safety, since she was also with Fiona and Lily, and also with Dave, as far as I know.

As I already mentioned, I was only with Dave and Fiona on one occasion, after Majorca, and I have not spoken to them since that time. In the last two years, we have met, as a family, with the MCCANN, once in a while. That happens mainly at the children's birthdays, a time when we get together.

The first time I had knowledge of the terrible news about Madeleine's disappearance through the radio, my thoughts went immediately to Dave. I asked Savio if Dave was also on holidays with the MCCANN in Portugal but he did not know.

I watched TV meticulously, and watching the coverage of the news, I understood that Dave was there, because I saw him, in the background, on the television images during the first days after the Madeleine's disappearance. Based on that, I believed that he was on holidays with the MCCANN in Portugal. Today, Wednesday, the 16th of May of 2007, at 17:40, I gave DC Brewer an A4 page containing 2 photographic images. I am going to reference these images as (ref KZG/1) (probatory element) that may (page seven) be presented as mean of proof, if necessary. These photographs were taken during the holidays in Majorca. In the photographs, Dave is wearing a white t-shirt and the woman in the photograph corresponds to his wife Fiona. The man who is holding the glass of wine in the photograph is Stuart. These photographs were taken while we were at Majorca.

Signed:

Did David Payne help bath Maddie or is that a forum myth ?

Would any mother let another man bath her kids ?

I think that the only source of the information is the Gaspars statement. I haven't seen it elsewhere.

It's a long time since my son needed help with bathing but I'm sure I'd have found it strange if a male friend offered to do so.

This is what Payne had to say for that evening visit to 5a...


"So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry's apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we've looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we've got that I was you know going to Kate's about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it's a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they've had such a great time, they're really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy,"

We holiday with another family and in ten years have never ever shared bathing of children. It hardly enters my husbands head to bath our own kids, not to mention other ones.

I find the whole lot of that tapas crowd obsessed with the bath anyway. When I had three kid under three brushing my teeth was cause to celebrate. Call me grubby, but they were not bathed every night and as soon as they could stand a quick shower down in the evening after the beach was sufficient on holiday. Then again I could never get them all to bed and asleep by 730 so that rules me out for parent of the year.

I can remember being told by a supporter of the Mccanns on here that the Gaspar statements had 'translation errors' in them. I started a thread specifically asking if there had been any other 'translation errors' within the files.

Funnily enough there were not.   

Lioned wrote:This is what Payne had to say for that evening visit to 5a...


"So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry's apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we've looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we've got that I was you know going to Kate's about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it's a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they've had such a great time, they're really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy,"

What a err, total, er, you know, mess that statement is!

Why is the subject of Payne being raised at this time ? Is there something new to discuss?

Lioned wrote:Did David Payne help bath Maddie or is that a forum myth ?

Would any mother let another man bath her kids ?

Hello Lioned

I have never seen articles, that stated Payne helped to bathe Madeleine, however I'm in agreement with you, regarding Katherine Gaspar, allowing Payne to bathe her child. If I were Katherine Gaspar, I would have insisted to her husband, that they removed themselves from the McCanns and the Paynes ASAP.

What I also don't understand is, the silence from the Paynes and the McCanns. Katherine Gaspar made a serious allegation against David Payne and Gerry McCann, which was not only given to a Leicester police officer, it was given to a journalist, who worked for a European newspaper, after her statement, was not passed on to the PJ until the McCanns returned home.

I can only presume Katherine Gaspar was being truthful when she made that allegation, if she wasn't she would have been sued by David Payne and Gerry McCann.

I can also presume that the reason her statement, wasn't passed to the PJ, until the McCanns returned home, was because she was believed by the Leicester police officer, who made the decision to hang on to her statement.

You cannot sue anyone for making a statement to the Police that is a genuine belief. Only could court action be taken if the statement was proven to be false, in which case the Police themselves would charge the 'witness' with wasting Police time.

But it is not necessarily about whether Mrs Gasper was telling the truth or not; as it is only her opinion of David Payne from the little she knows about him. She holds genuinely felt beliefs about him but that is all they are I'm afraid and you can't sue someone for their beliefs.

We do not know what Leicester did or did not do, other than Mr Amaral states he did not have the hard copy of her statement. We do not know whether Leicester investigated of their own accord or whether they did not investigate at all.

Mr Amaral certainly knew of the Gasper's statement before he had the written statement to hand, because the PJ had requested them and if they requested them they knew about them, knew about the content of them; so again it would have been possible to investigate David Payne from the PJ end of the investigation as well. Mr Amaral knew, requested a copy be sent over but it was not received until after Mr Amaral was moved off the investigation. It would be useful to know really how long beforehand the requesting of the statement occurred.

Information comes to the Police in many guises and it is not necessary to be in possession of a written statement before investigations into a claim can proceed, hence anonymous telephone calls to programmes like Crimewatch.

From what I understand, it was more of a questionnaire that the Gaspar's had completed.

Three Little Angels

Three little angels all dressed in white,
Tried to get to heaven on the end of a kite.
But the Kitetail was broken, down they all fell,
They didn't get to heaven but they all went to-

Two little angels all dressed in white,
Tried to get to heaven on the end of a kite.
But the Kitetail was broken, down they all fell,
They didn't get to heaven but they all went to-

One little angel all dressed in white,
Tried to get to heaven on the end of a kite.
But the Kitetail was broken, down they all fell,
They didn't get to heaven but they all went to-

Three little devils all dressed in red,
Tried to get to heaven on the end of a bed.
But the bedpost was broken, down they all fell,
They didn't get to heaven but they all went to-

Two little devils all dressed in red,
Tried to get to heaven on the end of a bed.
But the bedpost was broken, down they all fell,
They didn't get to heaven but they all went to-

One little devils all dressed in red,
Tried to get to heaven on the end of a bed.
But the bedpost was broken, down they all fell,
They didn't get to heaven but they all went to-

Three little martians all dressed in green,
Tried to get to heaven on a Pinball machine.
But the pinball was broken, down they all fell,
They didn't get to heaven but they all went to-

Two little martians all dressed in green,
Tried to get to heaven on a Pinball machine.
But the pinball was broken, down they all fell,
They didn't get to heaven but they all went to-

One little martians all dressed in green,
Tried to get to heaven on a Pinball machine.
But the pinball was broken, down they all fell,
They didn't get to heaven but they all went to-

Don't get excited,
Don't lose your head.
They didn't get to heaven but they all went to bed!

Read more at http://www.songlyrics.com/girl-scout-songs/three-little-angels-lyrics/#iF7bWKCi65PS4O61.99

It's not something anyone wants to really think about but it's there none the same. One of these on their own might be overlooked but all together they paint a picture:

Gasper Statement
Makeup Photos (very recent)
Kate's unfortunate references in her book (admiring her/P129 etc)
Madeleine's disappearance

Molly wrote:It's not something anyone wants to really think about but it's there none the same. One of these on their own might be overlooked but all together they paint a picture:

Gasper Statement
Makeup Photos (very recent)
Kate's unfortunate references in her book (admiring her/P129 etc)
Madeleine's disappearance

Obsession with "paedophile gangs", despite ZERO evidence.