Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

Good afternoon malena stool

it appears that no trick is too low for Hamas whether it is using animals to try to kill Israelis or using their own women and children as human shields. I have just watched some of a speech by Netanyahu and one thing he said showed the commitment of Hamas to peace. These tunnels into Israeli territory were not dug yesterday, they have obviously been digging them for years. Certainly since the peace accord of 2012, and probably long before that. why the so called Western leaders who are blaming Israel cannot see it, I cannot imagine. It seems a no brainer. Hamas does not want peace, and Israel does. certainly with the knowledge of these tunnels in mind, Hamas can't be trusted

Something else he said, made sense. A few days ago I said in reply to another post that I wish I knew how to stop the killing and the carnage. I don't but Hamas does. All they have to do is stop the rocket attacks and show Israel where these tunnels are - all of them - So they can be filled in. Hamas then promises to stop all hostile acts against Israel, and guarantee that in any dispute, the border crossings for example, to talk rather than attack. Israel would then stop it's own offensive.

At the moment it looks as if Israel may be going to go "all the way". That will kill a lot more women and children, but in the long run may save lives. A News report by a Palestinian reporter touched briefly on the rocket attacks, calling them alleged and then focussed entirely on the brutal licentious Israelis. Another example of fair, impartial,, and non partisan reporting.

katertaif wrote:Good afternoon malena stool

it appears that no trick is too low for Hamas whether it is using animals to try to kill Israelis or using their own women and children as human shields. I have just watched some of a speech by Netanyahu and one thing he said showed the commitment of Hamas to peace. These tunnels into Israeli territory were not dug yesterday, they have obviously been digging them for years. Certainly since the peace accord of 2012, and probably long before that. why the so called Western leaders who are blaming Israel cannot see it, I cannot imagine. It seems a no brainer. Hamas does not want peace, and Israel does. certainly with the knowledge of these tunnels in mind, Hamas can't be trusted

Something else he said, made sense. A few days ago I said in reply to another post that I wish I knew how to stop the killing and the carnage. I don't but Hamas does. All they have to do is stop the rocket attacks and show Israel where these tunnels are - all of them - So they can be filled in. Hamas then promises to stop all hostile acts against Israel, and guarantee that in any dispute, the border crossings for example, to talk rather than attack. Israel would then stop it's own offensive.

At the moment it looks as if Israel may be going to go "all the way". That will kill a lot more women and children, but in the long run may save lives. A News report by a Palestinian reporter touched briefly on the rocket attacks, calling them alleged and then focussed entirely on the brutal licentious Israelis. Another example of fair, impartial,, and non partisan reporting.

Good evening katertaif.

I could barely believe my eyes when I read the report of the donkey carrying explosives, yet if they are prepared to sacrifice their women and future generations they plainly will have no problem with using animals. The tunnels have been reported on for several years, they were originally claimed to be dug for providing food to the Palestinans in Gaza, if there were no rocket attacks there would be no need for the tunnels.

It's beyond belief that any democraticlly elected government could doubt Israel is reacting to severe provocation and would far sooner seek a peaceful solution. No government in the world would sit back and watch it's population and cities violated by rocket and mortar fire and not respond. For fair impartial and non partisan reporting I think we must read propaganda...

SOME PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS KILLED IN ISRAELI GROUND ATTACK,13 ISRAELI SOLDIERS KILLED.

I think propaganda about sums it up. As you say no government in the world could stand by and watch it's citizens attacked daily. Not and remain in government for long anyway. I also cannot understand the wilful blindness of politicians who unreservedly accuse the Israelis of disproportionate action while either ignoring, or at most brushing off Hamas' actions.

The only possible thing I can think of it what the Jews have suffered from over the centuries, in short anti Semitism. They killed Christ you know. I honestly cannot think of any other explanation. The facts are all there we can see it, but our politicians, who are supposed to be more intelligent that us apparently cannot.

katertaif wrote:I think propaganda about sums it up. As you say no government in the world could stand by and watch it's citizens attacked daily. Not and remain in government for long anyway. I also cannot understand the wilful blindness of politicians who unreservedly accuse the Israelis of disproportionate action while either ignoring, or at most brushing off  Hamas' actions.

The only possible thing I can think of it what the Jews have suffered from over the centuries, in short anti Semitism. They killed Christ you know. I honestly cannot think of any other explanation. The facts are all there we can see it, but our politicians, who are supposed to be more intelligent that us apparently cannot.

I think for intelligence we should really read, devious or cunning or opportunistic or narcissistic or any combination with lying and corrupt tossed in for good measure if our own amoral representatives are anything to judge by. There can be no justification for alleged world statesmen of any nation playing down a provoked response and portraying it as an aggressive act.

Narcissistic may be right I certainly couldn't love them. As you say, Israel is responding to a deliberate attack on it's citizens. No one can in fairness portray it as anything else and no one can in all fairness lay the blame at Israel's door.

Yes the casualties are disproportionate, but that Is partly because Israel is not using innocents as human shields while Hamas are (something else the alleged politicians appear unable to see) Also the IDF have a large force compared to the population and access to the most modern weapons with people trained to use them. Why do they have such an array of weaponry. I don't suppose it could be that they have been attacked more than once and live in almost daily fear of another coalition army striking at them again could it?

HAMAS CLAIMS TO HAVE CAPTURED AN ISRAELI SOLDIER.

Badboy wrote:HAMAS CLAIMS TO HAVE CAPTURED AN ISRAELI SOLDIER.

Good morning Badboy

Israeli spokesman has denied it since. It's as much a propaganda war as a shooting war.

katertaif wrote:

Badboy wrote:HAMAS CLAIMS TO HAVE CAPTURED AN ISRAELI SOLDIER.

Good morning Badboy

Israeli spokesman has denied it since. It's as much a propaganda war as a shooting war.

AGREE,THE FIRST CASUALTY OF WAR IS TRUTH AS THEY SAY.
IT HARD TO DISCERN TRUTH FROM LIES IN WAR.

As you say, truth is the first casualty. They are doing the same thing in the Ukraine. No one seems to know for certain exactly what happened, or by whom. When it took days, or even weeks for the world at large to find out about things like this, it didn't much matter either way. Since round the world communication now takes minutes, it seems as if putting the blame on someone else is all part and parcel of the act. All except in the case of Palestinian spokesmen and women, when asked about rocket attacks and tunnels, they simply ignore the question.

Good morning Iris.

That is the first question that should have been asked. It's all very well for ban Ki Moon and co. to call for cease fires. they had one in 2012 and two years before that, and before those, almost ad infinitum. how can you negotiate with someone who simply uses the cease fires to prepare for yet another resumption of the fighting with hundreds of women and children killed and maimed. The discovery of these tunnels which have taken many months and even years to dig clearly shows what Hamas intends.

Hamas refuses to accept any cease fire, and again that should tell ban Ki Moon and his kind something. Yes there are injustices on the Israeli side but promising to wipe Israel of the map isn't the solution. getting around a peace table and hammering out a permanent cessation of hostilities is. This means both sides wiping the slate clean of past injustices, whether real or imagined. The requisite being Hamas recognising the right of Israel to exist. It is difficult to say the least to negotiate a peace settlement with someone who wants you dead, and openly says so.

Failing Hamas refusing a cease fire Israel is doing the only thing it can do. In the past, they have always pulled back now they say they are going to finish Hamas. it's difficult to see it in the middle of the fighting, but in the long run that will save lives. I see Blair doesn't seem terribly bothered about it all, despite his being Middle East piece envoy. No that isn't a typo. Since he took on the job, the Middle East seems to have fallen to pieces.

SOME AIRLINES ARE REFUSING TO FY TO TEL AVIV AIRPORT BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN HIT BY ROCKETS.

Badboy wrote:SOME AIRLINES ARE REFUSING TO FY TO TEL AVIV AIRPORT BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN HIT BY ROCKETS.

Good evening Badboy

Not exactly hit by rockets I understand but close by. Some reports say about 2 Km while others claim 10 Km. Still it is a worry. I understand BA hasn't suspended flights, while the US has suspended them for 24 hours.

I don't suppose that the leaders of Hamas will worry that firing at a civilian airport is a war crime. The very thing they are accusing Israel of. perhaps some of our leaders will start to see some sense at last.

katertaif wrote:

Badboy wrote:SOME AIRLINES ARE REFUSING TO FY TO TEL AVIV AIRPORT BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN HIT BY ROCKETS.

Good evening Badboy

Not exactly hit by rockets I understand but close by. Some reports say about 2 Km while others claim 10 Km. Still it is a worry. I understand BA hasn't suspended flights, while the US has suspended them for 24 hours.

I don't suppose that the leaders of Hamas will worry that firing at a civilian airport is a war crime. The very thing they are accusing Israel of. perhaps some of our leaders will start to see some sense at last.

The BBC is showing bias yet again. The bit of TV news I caught this evening showed BBC correspondents reporting from Gaza, but not from Israel.

The BBC has always shown bias. No more so than a certain newscaster on Channel 4, a man with a certain predilection for widow Twanky socks. His sympathies are absolutely plain for all to see. In an interview  two days ago with Mark Regev he interrupted, harassed, and generally rode roughshod over everything Regev said. This evening, he also was in Gaza, and making his opinions on who did what plain enough for a blind man to see .

I was pleased to note however that although he tried the same tactics with I believe a retired IDF general, he didn't get as far. he started on about the Israeli settlements in what he called the occupied territories. The General pointed out that there are no settlements in any such territories since the Israeli government got rid of them years ago. At that point the interview was terminated. I wonder why.

I believe that newscasters are in the business of reporting news, without any bias of any kind. They are not in the business of telling us what we should think.  he same goes for the BBC. In their case they should be doubly careful, given that we pay for them.

I saw that last night on channel 4. I have never seen such bias. One side he gave them their head and let them speak as much as they liked. The other side he shouted down every word and seemed so angry with them. It was shocking.

We now have a member of our own Government saying that he would fire rockets on Israel.



I just cannot believe the stupidity and irresponsibility of one of our own MPs in making such a statement. Mind you he's the MP for Bradford East, so no doubt he's just securing his voter base for the next election. But he is inciting racial hatred and has no place in Government IMHO.

Badboy wrote:

katertaif wrote:

Badboy wrote:HAMAS CLAIMS TO HAVE CAPTURED AN ISRAELI SOLDIER.

Good morning Badboy

Israeli spokesman has denied it since. It's as much a propaganda war as a shooting war.

AGREE,THE FIRST CASUALTY OF WAR IS TRUTH AS THEY SAY.
IT HARD TO DISCERN TRUTH FROM LIES IN WAR.

Good morning Badboy.

On the subject of lies and truth in war and propaganda. I have just been looking at an article from the Gatestone Institute which specialises in Middle East affairs.

There were two photographs one published by Hamas, allegedly showing a family containing children killed by Israeli shelling, and another published by one of the groups fighting Assad showing a family containing children killed by Assad's use of cluster bombs in Syria.

The only problem I can see, is that it is obviously the same photograph. They have not even troubled to take another picture from a different angle. Yet still we have many of our leaders believing in the big bad Israeli wolf theory. when British MP's say they would also fire rockets at Israel, they should be treated as would any one of us "plebs". Certainly he is unfit to be a member of parliament. Clegg should make that clear ASAP.

Iris wrote:We now have a member of our own Government saying that he would fire rockets on Israel.  



I just cannot believe the stupidity and irresponsibility of one of our own MPs in making such a statement.  Mind you he's the MP for Bradford East, so no doubt he's just securing his voter base for the next election.  But he is inciting racial hatred and has no place in Government IMHO.

Good morning Iris

I agree with you 100%. he has certainly shown himself totally unfit to be an MP. Of course there is no danger of him going to Gaza. I imagine it's too dangerous for him.

He is no different from the other 700 or so of our 'Honourable Members' who are in parliament purely for self-aggrandisement. None of them have an ounce of honour or are worthy of the trust that the electorate continue to place in them. We truly are thick and mindless plebs to take part in the same charade every these amoral cretins call for our vote.

malena stool wrote:He is no different from the other 700 or so of our 'Honourable Members' who are in parliament purely for self-aggrandisement. None of them have an ounce of honour or are worthy of the trust that the electorate continue to place in them. We truly are thick and mindless plebs to take part in the same charade every these amoral cretins call for our vote.

Good morning malena stool

You are absolutely correct as usual we take a regular part in this mindless ritual and are conned into thinking we live in a democracy. That is one excellent reason for a hefty vote for UKIP next May. UKIP en masse may be, and probably are, no better than the rest, but at least it will send a clear and unequivocal message to the established glory hunters that we can no longer be relied on as voting fodder. At the least it may modify the more idiotic of their pledges. It might even make them tell the truth. no that would be too much to expect.

I would dearly love to see no one at all voting. That would really send a message to them. Unfortunately if only one person voted in each constituency, it would be hailed as a great victory for democracy and the truth. A rejection of the last four years of mismanagement by the labour/tory/Liberal/ Green/independent etc. government (delete as appropriate)

We've all heard them in their speeches after the returning officer has announced the results. To listen to them, they all won. Then some have a comfortable four years of playing catch up with Blair. I see he says he's only worth a mere £20 Million as against the quoted figure of £100 Million. I'm trolling the net to se where to send my top up donation, as I'm sure we all are.

Good evening katertaif.

I would think on the broader scale, Putin has a better track record of running a truthful government than does Cameron and the bunch of pinocchio lookalikes now resident in the commons. As you point out it needs UKIP or similar, to make an impression on the electorate and kick start the 'establishment' to the depths their standards have slumped. If UKIP were to succeed and a government based on truth and openness established, how long would it last?

In my opinion our trouble here in the UK is as I see it, all our politicial parties are playing politics in order to win over a multicultural electorate as can be seen by the comments of Lib Dem MP for Bradford East, the not so honourable David Ward.

Good evening malena stool

Our established parties are sleepwalking into oblivion and I think some of them at least have realised it. As you say the dishonourable member for Bradford East is playing to his electorate. A few more years on the green leather benches will suit him. I don't think many of them care about the next generation. It doesn't concern them. meanwhile let's just forget party politics, or even personal politics, and certainly forget pledges, promises, and manifestos. Just get elected by whatever means will best serve the purpose.

The day is rapidly approaching when the old means of choosing candidates means little or nothing. The electorate will replace the present crop with candidates more to their taste. I don't think UKIP can stop that from happening, although if they get the chance they may delay it for a while. In the interim we continue to live in a political vacuum.

As for President Putin, whatever the rights and wrongs of the Ukraine in general, and the tragedy of that airliner in particular, I'm sure Putin is shaking in his shoes facing Cameron's ire. Any arms contracts we lose will be snapped up by our EU colleagues. and allies.

AnnaEsse wrote:

katertaif wrote:

Badboy wrote:SOME AIRLINES ARE REFUSING TO FY TO TEL AVIV AIRPORT BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN HIT BY ROCKETS.

Good evening Badboy

Not exactly hit by rockets I understand but close by. Some reports say about 2 Km while others claim 10 Km. Still it is a worry. I understand BA hasn't suspended flights, while the US has suspended them for 24 hours.

I don't suppose that the leaders of Hamas will worry that firing at a civilian airport is a war crime. The very thing they are accusing Israel of. perhaps some of our leaders will start to see some sense at last.

The BBC is showing bias yet again. The bit of TV news I caught this evening showed BBC correspondents reporting from Gaza, but not from Israel.

Jon Snow on channel four 7pm news showed far more bias than the BBC. he not only has his unshakeable opinion that the Israelis are totally responsible for it all but is determined that we should all share that opinion. Tonight's interview (more of a harangue) with an Israeli spokesman was shocking. At one point snapping at the spokesman (Yigal Palmor) That he didn't want a lecture then proceeded to lecture Palmor. he "misunderstood" several things Palmor said. A truly disgraceful exhibition by a senior journalist.