Madeleine in red dress photos

Wintabells wrote:I agree that Madeleine's head is slightly longer at the back than the norm, but if she had this Scaphocephaly thing, it would have been picked up early and operated on or whatever they do. I haven't read anywhere that Scaphocephaly affects the child's behaviour or learning milestones, although of course, I can imagine it's extremely disturbing for a baby to have to endure surgery etc (and the surgery has to be performed very early, it seems).

Kate's comments about her newborn Madeleine make complete sense to me. She sounds like she was relieved that everything was as it should be and delighted that the whole miraculous process had actually worked.

I think that maybe Kate leaves the bits out that I would probably add and perhaps some other mothers would too, if they were to make a remark about a child's head being not at all squashed. As the baby travels through the birth canal, his/her head is squeezed. This is possible because the sutures are not fused. There are a few reasons why a child's head may look "squashed,' at birth, a Ventouse delivery being one of them; forceps delivery another. A baby delivered by Caesarian generally has a very rounded head. So, Kate's comment about Madeleine's head being not at all squashed makes me wonder if she had had a protracted labour and had been concerned. Or maybe she had seen lots of newborns and she could have described how she was so amazed that Madeleine's head didn't look like the average newborn because it was perfectly rounded.

Sometimes I wonder if Kate leaves a lot to be assumed in what she says and thinks that what is omitted is obvious. This has led me to wonder if Kate has Asperger's. "Theory of mind," in relation to Autistic Spectrum could explain a lot of the odd things Kate says. According to "Theory of mind," if the Asperger's/autistic person knows something, they believe that everyone else knows it. So, we could understand that when Kate describes Madeleine's head as not at all squashed, her belief is that everyone knows what she means, that like most women in labour she had certain worries and the shape of her child's head at birth was one of them.

AnnaEsse, Isn't Aspergers very rare in females?

I take your points, the only reason I took particular note of that sentence re Maddie's head, is because of the unusual shape of Maddie's head in the photographs at the beginning. Put together it doesn't add up.

I'm sure treatment must have started early and perhaps "Maddie and her fear of pain' refers to the treatment the baby/toddler had to undergo.
Whatever else was wrong with her, she doesn't look healthy or well in a lot of photographs, only when she is smiling - when the bags under her eyes don't show up so much. Poor little girl. My heart goes out to her.

tigger wrote:AnnaEsse, Isn't Aspergers very rare in females?

I take your points, the only reason I took particular note of that sentence re Maddie's head, is because of the unusual shape of Maddie's head in the photographs at the beginning. Put together it doesn't add up.

I'm sure treatment must have started early and perhaps "Maddie and her fear of pain' refers to the treatment the baby/toddler had to undergo.
Whatever else was wrong with her, she doesn't look healthy or well in a lot of photographs, only when she is smiling - when the bags under her eyes don't show up so much. Poor little girl. My heart goes out to her.

I'm not sure about 'rare,' but believed to be less common in females and frequently not diagnosed.

Girls and Asperger's Syndrome

The primary differences between Asperger's diagnoses in girls and boys seem to be caused by basic differences in the ways boys and girls express themselves. Aggressive behavior is more noticeable, and a child who is overly aggressive is more likely to be evaluated. Because girls have a greater ability to express their emotions, they're less likely to act out when they're upset, confused or overwhelmed. Without this behavioral "compass", the other aspects of Asperger's are more likely to go unnoticed.

Another similarity between ADHD and Asperger's in girls is that the symptoms are more passive in nature, which makes them more difficult to notice. Because the symptoms are milder, parents are also more reluctant to bring their daughter in for a diagnosis.

Some experts speculate that one reason fewer girls are diagnosed is because their peers are more likely to help them cope in social situations, which is where Asperger's symptoms are most readily identifiable. Nurturing is instinctive in females, and so the friends of a young girl with Aspergers will intuitively comfort her when she's upset, or guide her through social interactions. In contrast, boys tend to be more 'predatory' and therefore more likely to tease a boy with Asperger's. Because a girl's friends do their best to help her, her parents and/or teachers may never see symptoms - or may not see them often enough - that would warrant a clinical diagnosis.

http://www.yourlittleprofessor.com/girls.html

Also:

Doctors are 'failing to spot Asperger's in girls'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/apr/12/autism-aspergers-girls

tigger wrote:AnnaEsse, Isn't Aspergers very rare in females?

I take your points, the only reason I took particular note of that sentence re Maddie's head, is because of the unusual shape of Maddie's head in the photographs at the beginning. Put together it doesn't add up.

I'm sure treatment must have started early and perhaps "Maddie and her fear of pain' refers to the treatment the baby/toddler had to undergo.
Whatever else was wrong with her, she doesn't look healthy or well in a lot of photographs, only when she is smiling - when the bags under her eyes don't show up so much. Poor little girl. My heart goes out to her.

If Madeleine was a child with 'special needs,' then my heart goes out to her even more. She should have been even more protected. For me, it's not OK to leave any child alone as the McCanns' children were, but if Madeleine was a 'special needs,' child, then that makes it even worse.

tigger wrote:AnnaEsse, Isn't Aspergers very rare in females?

I take your points, the only reason I took particular note of that sentence re Maddie's head, is because of the unusual shape of Maddie's head in the photographs at the beginning. Put together it doesn't add up.

I'm sure treatment must have started early and perhaps "Maddie and her fear of pain' refers to the treatment the baby/toddler had to undergo.
Whatever else was wrong with her, she doesn't look healthy or well in a lot of photographs, only when she is smiling - when the bags under her eyes don't show up so much. Poor little girl. My heart goes out to her.

Madeleine looks pretty old in that video that reveals an elongated skull Tigger. Just because treatment is possible does not mean that she was given any. As I undertsand it the elongationn is caused by the early closure and fusion of the skull around the fontanel meaning that that the plates of the skull move around into a different shape pushing it backwards. So at birth the skull is a normal rounnd shape. Treatment appers to be around opening these up again to allow the skull to settle down into a more natural shape. Such treatment must have its own risks and maybe there were others in this case that made it too risky for the treatment to take place. We will only know for sure if and when we get access to the medical reords unless someone in the know comes forward that is.

I also have odd eyes. One half of one eye is brown and the other eye is blue. I am quite sure I have had this all my life. I have just looked at old photos of myself, unfortunately because of my age a lot of early photos are in black and white. On older colour photos, some you can see this difference but others not. I have known people for years before they have noticed. Although some people notice straight away!
My mum has brown eyes and my dad had blue eyes. No other sibling has this difference in eye colour!

On the different coloured eyes issue. I have found one syndrome that is associated with this problem. It includes deafness, bowel problems, wide apart set eyes, slight decrease in intellectual function sometimes. Has there been any indication of hearing problems? Could long crying episodes be associated with "tummy ache"? I include a link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002401/

Just a shot in the dark, may not be relevant in any way. If the Mc Canns' original description to the PJ, was different to how Madeleine was "marketed" Then surely this would help Tony Bennett and Sr Amaral. How could it be upheld that they were hindering the search for Madeleine when her parents issued a false description in the first place.

Pipstar1 - I have had no problems throughout my life with having another eye colour. Nor any 'behavioural issues'.

Not sure whether Madeleine really had any eye colour problems really. So much of this case is very confusing!

Personally I have always suspected that Maddie may have had CHARGE syndrome.

http://www.chargesyndrome.org/about-charge.asp

Some of the listed symptoms may not appear at all in sme children.

NoStone wrote:

pipstar1 wrote:I havn't read the book, so thanks Gillyspot. Still, the blue/green different colour eyes are unusual.

Did'nt David Bowie end up with different coloured eyes after a bump on hiis head when he was small?

Yes he did, and it is also a very common condition in white cats (I used to breed cats). White cats with blue eyes are usually deaf. It is more common to have a white cat with one blue and one green eye, and the side with the blue eye will also have a deaf ear, but the cat will have a good ear on the green-eye side. It's a genetic thing.

pipstar1 wrote:On the different coloured eyes issue. I have found one syndrome that is associated with this problem. It includes deafness, bowel problems, wide apart set eyes, slight decrease in intellectual function sometimes. Has there been any indication of hearing problems? Could long crying episodes be associated with "tummy ache"? I include a link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002401/

Just a shot in the dark, may not be relevant in any way. If the Mc Canns' original description to the PJ, was different to how Madeleine was "marketed" Then surely this would help Tony Bennett and Sr Amaral. How could it be upheld that they were hindering the search for Madeleine when her parents issued a false description in the first place.

If it's all right with you, pipstar1, I will copy the second paragraph to Tony Bennett, I'm sure he'll appreciate it. Isn't it marvellous how everybody sees the same thing from a different angle? It's such a good argument.

Hi Mariamg, Sorry, I didn't, mean to make a personal comment to you. My issue was with Madeleine's eye color.

Tigger, Yes please do send para 2 to Tony, I was wondering how to relay this to him. Many thanks

Pipstar1.

AnnaEsse wrote:

tigger wrote:AnnaEsse, Isn't Aspergers very rare in females?

I take your points, the only reason I took particular note of that sentence re Maddie's head, is because of the unusual shape of Maddie's head in the photographs at the beginning. Put together it doesn't add up.

I'm sure treatment must have started early and perhaps "Maddie and her fear of pain' refers to the treatment the baby/toddler had to undergo.
Whatever else was wrong with her, she doesn't look healthy or well in a lot of photographs, only when she is smiling - when the bags under her eyes don't show up so much. Poor little girl. My heart goes out to her.

If Madeleine was a child with 'special needs,' then my heart goes out to her even more. She should have been even more protected. For me, it's not OK to leave any child alone as the McCanns' children were, but if Madeleine was a 'special needs,' child, then that makes it even worse.

Interesting articles, I didn't know. Is autism in general now called Aspergers? I wonder what has brought this epidemic on. I remember vividly the Blairs proclaiming there was nothing wrong with the 'cocktail' injection for infants. When asked if his son Leo was given this cocktail, he refused to answer.
I think it's like the anti organic publicity: pesticides etc are controlled, tested and can't do you any harm. Considering we ingest about a kilo per year of these safe pesticides, I would think that the sheer combination of chemicals must have some influence on your body.

As for Kate, I don't see her as Aspergers, she was an only, and certainly by Daddy, adored child. The narcistic personality or the egocentricity can spring from that background. I do think she has an alcohol problem.

If the purpose of this thread is to establish/speculate as to wether or not Maddie had some physical or mental deformity which would somehow explain away the abhorant behaviour of Her parents then i got to say i am very uncomfortable with that.
To me Maddie looked pretty normal and any 'disability' would have been slight in any event and have no bearing on this case.In other words whatever the condion of Maddie the parents are either guilty or not of those things we have suggested.Plenty of parents have had to cope with 'difficult' or disabled children and not been minded to go to Portugal to 'loose them'.
God knows what any visitors to this forum would think of us dissecting this poor childs appearance,personally i am going to let her rest in peace and grant her some dignity at least as i believe it almost certain She is dead.
Lets dissect the parents by all means but leave the poor child alone.

The 'not allowing' off the medical records does, to me, mean that the mccanns don't want US to see what is written in those records and in doing so it does mean that it is relevant to this case otherwise the records would off been given to the PJ as were KMs records.


I understand what you are saying Lioned but if it wasn't relevant then why the withholding off the records after all, her doctor said Madeleine was well etc.

Who knows, perhaps Madeleine saw A private doctor and that is why the parents financial records were not given either.



And let's not forget they were going to give guardianship to one off the family, who told the pj this, that information could only off come from one off their immediate family members .

The mccanns either murdered their child or they didnt,by accident or neglect ,they hid the body or they didnt,whatever the mccanns did there is no excuse.I am not interested if Maddie had a squashed head,strange eye,spastic arm,ever changing size,too large too small,big feet or little feet or whatever her medical records say (unless there is reference to other 'interference').
The behaviour of the parents towards this child has no excuse.

This forum is going into denial if the consensus is that this thread has some value to the case.

This thread per se might have no value to the case, but the fact that the records that the PJ requested were denied to them - that certainly does make a difference. A) the PJ must have had a reason for asking in the first place and B) the LP must have had a reason for denying that request. I don't think it's unreasonable for people to want to speculate what those reasons could be. And it just may point to a case of pre-mediatation.

Lioned wrote:The mccanns either murdered their child or they didnt,by accident or neglect ,they hid the body or they didnt,whatever the mccanns did there is no excuse.I am not interested if Maddie had a squashed head,strange eye,spastic arm,ever changing size,too large too small,big feet or little feet or whatever her medical records say (unless there is reference to other 'interference').
The behaviour of the parents towards this child has no excuse.

This forum is going into denial if the consensus is that this thread has some value to the case.

I disagree, Lioned. Madeleine was a real child with real needs and 'special needs,' is not an insult. Wondering what that real child was like is not being in denial. If Madeleine did indeed have 'special needs,' and her parents left her every night of the holiday, then they are even worse, in my mind, than I previously thought of them.

Establishing a motive for murder would be relevant,this too may create a case for pre meditation,that is what this thread alludes to,you need to make your minds up ! If you think that Maddie died as a result of an accident,which is what i thought most of the long time members here have previously subscribed to then Her condition is of no consequence.No excuses for the treatment of that child regardless of Her condition,you carry on if you are comfortable with such speculation if you think it will lead to a different scenario,i'd prefer not to continue with the personal disection of an almost certainly deceased child so i'll say no more here.

Lioned wrote:Establishing a motive for murder would be relevant,this too may create a case for pre meditation,that is what this thread alludes to,you need to make your minds up ! If you think that Maddie died as a result of an accident,which is what i thought most of the long time members here have previously subscribed to then Her condition is of no consequence.No excuses for the treatment of that child regardless of Her condition,you carry on if you are comfortable with such speculation if you think it will lead to a different scenario,i'd prefer not to continue with the personal disection of an almost certainly deceased child so i'll say no more here.

This is not personal dissection. As I have said, 'special needs,' is not an insult and wondering about whether Madeleine had those needs is not in any way derogatory. The thread is not alluding to anything. There may be individual opinions, but that's not the whole thread. I tend to think that Madeleine died as the result of an accident. It may be that a pre-existing condition made her more likely to fall or be generally accident prone, but whatever led to that accident, there was a need to cover up that the accident had taken place. Madeleine's medical records may have given some indications as to what could have happened to her when she was left on her own with her siblings or left on her own while the other children were elsewhere.

If people want to discuss this they may. It is highly speculative, and most likely, from all the photos we have seen, and what else we know for sure (not a lot) she was a normal little girl who had an accident in the flat because she was shamefully left alone in it. Annaesse got it right: her health it isn't really germaine to any of the main arguments about neglect, cover up, and the mystery of what happened to her, on what date, who was involved, and who was in the know....etc etc

I think her health is central to the case. I think that had she been perfect in the eyes of her parents, we might not be here to discuss her demise.
Note that I say perfect in the eyes of her parents. Whenever I post something about Maddie not being outstandingly beautiful or if I suggest that she was ill and looked it - it's often interpreted as an insult to Maddie.
NO! To me she looks lovely, but ill. I'm sticking with that. Those bags under the eyes aren't natural. We have lots of evidence of her being 'difficult' her trouble sleeping etc.
There are some photographs that literally tear at the heartstrings, strangely enough the photocopy they circulated - the one with the handwritten message on it. She's sitting there, absorbed and content with something - so sweet. She must be about two there.
I also think she was lonely and didn't get enough cuddles. That's how soppy I am.
Kate herself said that the she didn't have much to do with the twins and it's evident from the lack of interaction in the few videos. No children's parties, no little friends round, just Maddie and grown ups or sometimes Maddie with her cousins.

tigger wrote:I think her health is central to the case. I think that had she been perfect in the eyes of her parents, we might not be here to discuss her demise.
Note that I say perfect in the eyes of her parents. Whenever I post something about Maddie not being outstandingly beautiful or if I suggest that she was ill and looked it - it's often interpreted as an insult to Maddie.
NO! To me she looks lovely, but ill. I'm sticking with that. Those bags under the eyes aren't natural. We have lots of evidence of her being 'difficult' her trouble sleeping etc.
There are some photographs that literally tear at the heartstrings, strangely enough the photocopy they circulated - the one with the handwritten message on it. She's sitting there, absorbed and content with something - so sweet. She must be about two there.
I also think she was lonely and didn't get enough cuddles. That's how soppy I am.
Kate herself said that the she didn't have much to do with the twins and it's evident from the lack of interaction in the few videos. No children's parties, no little friends round, just Maddie and grown ups or sometimes Maddie with her cousins.

Tigger, yes, where are the birthday party videos? You'd think there might at least be a few short ones that someone took on a mobile phone, videos of Madeleine with Sean and Amelie and her friends from the nursery she went to. Where are the holiday photos, apart from the few where there is a little group all set up for the photo? Are there pics of Madeleine, Sean and Amelie with those ice creams they had after their 20 minute trip to the beach? Photos of them on the beach?

Lioned wrote:If the purpose of this thread is to establish/speculate as to wether or not Maddie had some physical or mental deformity which would somehow explain away the abhorant behaviour of Her parents then i got to say i am very uncomfortable with that.

I agree. And, as the thread starter, can I just note that I started it to see if anyone knew when the red dress photos were taken and what was going on in the background. I've established the latter, but not the former.

And for the record, I don't think there's anything abnormal about Madeleine's head shape and these kinds of discussions seem somewhat gratuitous to me. Even if there was an abnormality, I have never had the sense that Madeleine was anything other than an adored and happy child. Her parents, however, made (in my view) a fatal error in their parenting of some kind and staged neglect and abduction to avoid losing their other two as well as their reputations and ability to continue to work in medicine.