Why is Israel not allowed to defend itself

As it does every couple of years the constantly simmering Palestinian/Israeli conflict erupts into outright war. When it does it seems the world rushes to condemn Israel, and praise the poor Palestinians.

I don't say I agree with everything the Israelis do but surely they are fully entitled to defend themselves. Hamas and even so called moderate factions in the Gaza strip are firing rockets daily into Israel. That they have not done too much damage is not for the want of trying. Hamas is especially two faced in this. First of all, it isn't that long ago, they promised to stop doing it but only because their immediate stocks had been used up or destroyed, So they stopped until more, and more sophisticated ones were brought up.

Israel put up with it for a while as they always do but eventually retaliated as any sovereign country has the right, even the duty. Especially after the killing of those three boys. There are many countries who suffer or have suffered similar incursions, if it's all right for them to retaliate why is it so wrong for Israel?

Yes women and children are being killed by Israeli attacks. Why is that? Because Hamas Hezbollah, and their ilk site their launching sites in schools, and hospitals. Saddam Hussein I recall did something similar and was universally condemned so why is it OK for Hamas to do it?

This evening, a Hamas official was interviewed (if you could call it an interview) He refused absolutely to accept or even admit their part of it only the nasty and vicious Israelis. When asked if he condemned the killing of those three Israeli teenagers who started this he completely went OTT. They weren't Teenagers We don't know who killed them it was probably Netanyahu so he could blame the Palestinians. Even when pressed he wouldn't even condemn it as a matter of principle. That's what Israel is fighting now.

As I say, I don't agree with everything the Israelis do but let's have a sense of proportion. It isn't only Israel to blame

katertaif wrote:As it does every couple of years the constantly simmering Palestinian/Israeli conflict erupts into outright war. When it does it seems the world rushes to condemn Israel, and praise the poor Palestinians.

I don't say I agree with everything the Israelis do but surely they are fully entitled to defend themselves. Hamas and even so called moderate factions in the Gaza strip are firing rockets daily into Israel. That they have not done too much damage is not for the want of trying. Hamas is especially two faced in this. First of all, it isn't that long ago, they promised to stop doing it but only because their immediate stocks had been used up or destroyed, So they stopped until more, and more sophisticated ones were brought up.

Israel put up with it for a while as they always do but eventually retaliated as any sovereign country has the right, even the duty. Especially after the killing of those three boys. There are many countries who suffer or have suffered similar incursions, if it's all right for them to retaliate why is it so wrong for Israel?

Yes women and children are being killed by Israeli attacks. Why is that? Because Hamas Hezbollah, and their ilk site their launching sites in schools, and hospitals. Saddam Hussein I recall did something similar and was universally condemned so why is it OK for Hamas to do it?

This evening, a Hamas official was interviewed (if you could call it an interview) He refused absolutely to accept or even admit their part of it only the nasty and vicious Israelis. When asked if he condemned the killing of those three Israeli teenagers who started this he completely went OTT. They weren't Teenagers We don't know who killed them it was probably Netanyahu so he could blame the Palestinians. Even when pressed he wouldn't even condemn it as a matter of principle. That's what Israel is fighting now.

As I say, I don't agree with everything the Israelis do but let's have a sense of proportion. It isn't only Israel to blame

One of the first things small children starting school in the south of Israel learn is how to evacuate to the air raid shelters. Hamas as been firing rockets into that area on a regular basis for years, but that doesn't get into the news. This week, Hamas has been bombing Tel Aviv and areas close to Jerusalem, but that doesn't seem to count: it's big bad Israel when it responds.

Israel has worked hard to find and arrest those suspected of killing the Palestinian teenager, but Hamas has done nothing to help find those responsible for killing the three Israeli teenagers. In fact there have been celebrations in Gaza.

As you have said, Palestinian civilians are being killed because of where Hamas chooses to site its bases. At the moment, leaders are thought to be holed up under a hospital. They hide among civilian populations and launch rocket attacks from residential areas.

http://www.wnd.com/2014/07/hamas-leaders-believed-hunkered-underneath-gaza-hospital/

Someone on Facebook said this morning that Gaza didn't have an army, or fighter planes, bombs or rockets and Israel was bombing defenceless people. Well, somebody in the Gaza area is sending rockets and mortars into Israel!

Goodevening katertaif,

I've just been reading HuffPuff's reporting and comments of the events taking place in Israel. As you rightly point out the IDF are simply responding to rocket attacks from beyond their borders. The Israelis have learnt that turning the other cheek does nothing other than encourage those who wish them harm. While we can but sympathise with the deaths and horrific injuries inflicted on the women and children of both sides, the answer lies with the Palestinian leadership's allowance of Hammas to operate within their country's borders.

As Anna as pointed out, Hammas hide amongst civilians, behind women and children knowing the IDF will be blamed for any civilian deaths, as was shown this morning on Sky News, where Israeli airstrikes had taken out a Hammas leader who was hiding in a house surrounded by civilians, this isn't war, it is terrorism reported as if it were a military conflict.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/09/15-images-of-gaza-under-attack-as-israel-responds-to-hamas-rockets-_n_5570579.html

How accurate are images on social media of Gaza under attack? - #BBCtrending

A BBC report has found that many of the photographs used to illustrate the situation in Gaza are from years ago, and even from the conflicts in Iraq and Syria.

A significant part of any battle nowadays is waged in the media, as each sides tries to garner public support through the exploit of images and footage used to influence popular opinion.

A report by the BBC shows that Palestinian supporters are using fake images to illustrate the suffering in Gaza.

“Graphic images are being shared on social media to show how people have been affected by the renewed tensions between Israel and the Palestinians,” the BBC reported.

“Over the past week the hashtag #GazaUnderAttack has been used hundreds of thousands of times, often to distribute pictures claiming to show the effects of Israeli airstrikes on Gaza.”

The hashtag has received 375,000 retweets in eight days.

The network found that several graphic photos, that spread through social media proporting to show killed Gazans and destruction caused by IAF strikes in recent days, were actually photos taken several years ago, some of which in other war areas like Syria and Iraq.

http://pamelageller.com/2014/07/jew-haters-use-photos-syria-iraq-demonize-israel-social-media.html/#sthash.34UkBJ7k.dpuf

Thanks Anna, I don't think we should be overlly surprised by the reuse of news items to pack out and distort the truth.

In saying that, I would never have dreamed that a hotch potch of historic footage would be stitched together and reaired when it is so much easier and quicker nowadays to get the real facts of a situation into the public domain and avoid an embarrassing exposure of bad peractice.

Good morning malena stool

It never ceases to amaze me how the Palestinian leaders such as Hamas simply deny all wrongdoing. while pointing the finger of blame firmly at Israel. That official tonight being questioned by Jon Snow simply sidestepped the question and said look what Israel is doing to us innocents. Not in those words of course.

As has been pointed out. These rocket attacks have been taking place for years with the various world leaders taking absolutely no notice. where is Ban Ki Moon now and why is he not condemning these attacks? Especially as Hamas is as usual using civilians as shields. It's obvious that the IDF is doing everything possible to minimise casualties among ordinary Palestinians but faced with Hamas' cynical lack of concern for the lives of their own people, some civilian deaths are inevitable. it speaks volumes that the IDF has launched something in the order of 400 to 500 air strikes, and kept the number of deaths down to less than 50. Surely if we can see it these alleged leaders can. An uncaring Israeli air force would have killed far more people if they were simply attacking indiscriminately.

Of course we can expect the Muslim countries to cry foul, they always do. I was in S. Africa when the 6 day war broke out. A Jewish friend of ours immediately made plans to go to Israel to help in whatever way possible. (She was a nurse at Jo'burg General Hospital) She was utterly disgusted when the IDF cleaned it all up in 6 days. Luckily the hospital took her resignation back.

This report is probably nearer the truth.
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/178232/soccer-thugs-in-jerusalem

malena stool wrote:Thanks Anna, I don't think we should be overlly surprised by the reuse of news items to pack out and distort the truth.

In saying that, I would never have dreamed that a hotch potch of historic footage would be stitched together and reaired when it is so much easier and quicker nowadays to get the real facts of a situation into the public domain and avoid an embarrassing exposure of bad peractice.

It's not the first time this has happened. They parade bodies of children in a shameful way, re-using old images, for sympathy.

katertaif wrote:Good morning malena stool

It never ceases to amaze me how the Palestinian leaders such as Hamas simply deny all wrongdoing. while pointing the finger of blame firmly at Israel. That official tonight being questioned by Jon Snow simply sidestepped the question and said look what Israel is doing to us innocents. Not in those words of course.

As has been pointed out. These rocket attacks have been taking place for years with the various world leaders taking absolutely no notice. where is Ban Ki Moon now and why is he not condemning these attacks? Especially as Hamas is as usual using civilians as shields. It's obvious that the IDF is doing everything possible to minimise casualties among ordinary Palestinians but faced with Hamas' cynical lack of concern for the lives of their own people, some civilian deaths are inevitable. it speaks volumes that the IDF has launched something in the order of 400 to 500 air strikes, and kept the number of deaths down to less than 50. Surely if we can see it these alleged leaders can. An uncaring Israeli air force would have killed far more people if they were simply attacking indiscriminately.

Of course we can expect the Muslim countries to cry foul, they always do. I was in S. Africa when the 6 day war broke out. A Jewish friend of ours immediately made plans to go to Israel to help in whatever way possible. (She was a nurse at Jo'burg General Hospital) She was utterly disgusted when the IDF cleaned it all up in 6 days. Luckily the hospital took her resignation back.

"It's obvious that the IDF is doing everything possible to minimise casualties among ordinary Palestinians but faced with Hamas' cynical lack of concern for the lives of their own people, some civilian deaths are inevitable"

Not only this, but Israel has shelters for its own people while Hamas spends on rockets and mortars but not on shelters to protect the people, while hiding out amongst them. Shameful but not reported widely.

Iris wrote:This report is probably nearer the truth.
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/178232/soccer-thugs-in-jerusalem

Thanks Iris.

malena stool wrote:Thanks Anna, I don't think we should be overlly surprised by the reuse of news items to pack out and distort the truth.

In saying that, I would never have dreamed that a hotch potch of historic footage would be stitched together and reaired when it is so much easier and quicker nowadays to get the real facts of a situation into the public domain and avoid an embarrassing exposure of bad peractice.

Good morning malena stool

You are of course quite right (again) that in this day and age it would be far easier quicker, and a great deal more accurate to get the real facts in any given situation. That being the very opposite of what the apologists want. they do not want the truth. They want to see the bodies of dead women and children killed at the hands of the brutal Israelis. Rockets fired daily into Israel many of which are shot down, and the rest kill very few (if any at all) isn't good copy. That Hamas is firing those rockets with every intention of killing Israeli women and children is irrelevant.

The Palestinians say they only want a home of their own. That may be true, but they want ALL of the territory they still call Palestine. Look at any Muslim atlas. You won't find Israel but Palestine is there. What they really mean is they are denying Jews a home of their own. f course they don't advertise that part of it.

AnnaEsse wrote:

katertaif wrote:Good morning malena stool

It never ceases to amaze me how the Palestinian leaders such as Hamas simply deny all wrongdoing. while pointing the finger of blame firmly at Israel. That official tonight being questioned by Jon Snow simply sidestepped the question and said look what Israel is doing to us innocents. Not in those words of course.

As has been pointed out. These rocket attacks have been taking place for years with the various world leaders taking absolutely no notice. where is Ban Ki Moon now and why is he not condemning these attacks? Especially as Hamas is as usual using civilians as shields. It's obvious that the IDF is doing everything possible to minimise casualties among ordinary Palestinians but faced with Hamas' cynical lack of concern for the lives of their own people, some civilian deaths are inevitable. it speaks volumes that the IDF has launched something in the order of 400 to 500 air strikes, and kept the number of deaths down to less than 50. Surely if we can see it these alleged leaders can. An uncaring Israeli air force would have killed far more people if they were simply attacking indiscriminately.

Of course we can expect the Muslim countries to cry foul, they always do. I was in S. Africa when the 6 day war broke out. A Jewish friend of ours immediately made plans to go to Israel to help in whatever way possible. (She was a nurse at Jo'burg General Hospital) She was utterly disgusted when the IDF cleaned it all up in 6 days. Luckily the hospital took her resignation back.

"It's obvious that the IDF is doing everything possible to minimise casualties among ordinary Palestinians but faced with Hamas' cynical lack of concern for the lives of their own people, some civilian deaths are inevitable"

Not only this, but Israel has shelters for its own people while Hamas spends on rockets and mortars but not on shelters to protect the people, while hiding out amongst them. Shameful but not reported widely.

Sadly for the Palestinian civilian population rockets and mortars cost lots of money to replace. There is however an almost limitless supply of canon fodder in the areas that Hamas are placing their launch sites and we mustn't forget the newsworthy scenes of broken non-combatant civilian bodies laying amid the shattered buildings that rockets were being fired from.

I wonder just who is supplying Hammas with their hardware and the wherewithal to pay for it?

It's costing Israel a bloody fortune as well, and Israel is not a wealthy country, there is a lot of poverty there. The Iron Dome costs $30,000 each time it is deployed.

katertaif wrote:

malena stool wrote:Thanks Anna, I don't think we should be overlly surprised by the reuse of news items to pack out and distort the truth.

In saying that, I would never have dreamed that a hotch potch of historic footage would be stitched together and reaired when it is so much easier and quicker nowadays to get the real facts of a situation into the public domain and avoid an embarrassing exposure of bad peractice.

Good morning malena stool

You are of course quite right (again) that in this day and age it would be far easier quicker, and a great deal more accurate to get the real facts in any given situation. That being the very opposite of what the apologists want. they do not want the truth. They want to see the bodies of dead women and children killed at the hands of the brutal Israelis. Rockets fired daily into Israel many of which are shot down, and the rest kill very few (if any at all) isn't good copy. That Hamas is firing those rockets with every intention of killing Israeli women and children is irrelevant.

The Palestinians say they only want a home of their own. That may be true, but they want ALL of the territory they still call Palestine. Look at any Muslim atlas. You won't find Israel but Palestine is there. What they really mean is they are denying Jews a home of their own. f course they don't advertise that part of it.

Good evening katertaif.
As you say they have no consideration for the Israelis, their homes or the oasis the Israelis have made out of what was, in living memory a bleak desert. The Palestinians and their leaders would be far better advised to oust Hamas and work with and learn from the Israelis. In effect, lift themselves into to the 21st century. But that's not likely to happen, well educated, well paid professional workers tend to be deeper thinkers and more cognitively aware than the average sheperd or reed gatherer.
So as I see it, the constant exchange of rockets and air strikes will carry on until the Israelis put boots on the ground and bring this relentless war of attrition to an end.

Tel Aviv in 1948.

Tel Aviv now.

The Palestinian leaders would never accept such decadence Iris...

malena stool wrote:The Palestinian leaders would never accept such decadence Iris...

If they took all the money they waste on rockets and bombs, and spent it on doing up the place, it would be looking like Dubai by now. It's the most bankrolled place on the surface of the planet, and it's a midden. And that is not the fault of the Israelis.

Iris wrote:

malena stool wrote:The Palestinian leaders would never accept such decadence Iris...

If they took all the money they waste on rockets and bombs, and spent it on doing up the place, it would be looking like Dubai by now.  It's the most bankrolled place on the surface of the planet, and it's a midden.  And that is not the fault of the Israelis.

Absolutely not... It's the legacy of an entire people who are locked in a time capsule 14 centuries old.

What terrifies me is that if they have their way we will all be living in a midden soon. Parts of the UK are looking like it already

malena stool wrote:

katertaif wrote:

malena stool wrote:Thanks Anna, I don't think we should be overlly surprised by the reuse of news items to pack out and distort the truth.

In saying that, I would never have dreamed that a hotch potch of historic footage would be stitched together and reaired when it is so much easier and quicker nowadays to get the real facts of a situation into the public domain and avoid an embarrassing exposure of bad peractice.

Good morning malena stool

You are of course quite right (again) that in this day and age it would be far easier quicker, and a great deal more accurate to get the real facts in any given situation. That being the very opposite of what the apologists want. they do not want the truth. They want to see the bodies of dead women and children killed at the hands of the brutal Israelis. Rockets fired daily into Israel many of which are shot down, and the rest kill very few (if any at all) isn't good copy. That Hamas is firing those rockets with every intention of killing Israeli women and children is irrelevant.

The Palestinians say they only want a home of their own. That may be true, but they want ALL of the territory they still call Palestine. Look at any Muslim atlas. You won't find Israel but Palestine is there. What they really mean is they are denying Jews a home of their own. f course they don't advertise that part of it.

Good evening katertaif.
As you say they have no consideration for the Israelis, their homes or the oasis the Israelis have made out of what was, in living memory a bleak desert. The Palestinians and their leaders would be far better advised to oust Hamas and work with and learn from the Israelis. In effect, lift themselves into to the 21st century. But that's not likely to happen, well educated, well paid professional workers tend to be deeper thinkers and more cognitively aware than the average sheperd or reed gatherer.
So as I see it, the constant exchange of rockets and air strikes will carry on until the Israelis put boots on the ground and bring this relentless war of attrition to an end.

Good evening malena stool

The only problem with it is that the IDF has put boots on the ground more than once, and of course been pilloried for that as well. There are those and not only Hamas, who just will not see what is in front of their noses. So the IDF go in, stop the rockets, and destroy the launch sites. Hamas promise to be good in future all the while bringing more rockets through the interlinking tunnels with Egypt. The IDF pull back, Within a short space of time Hamas have enough stocks, and it all starts all over again.

As for who is bankrolling it all, I would imagine the Saudis are providing the bulk of it. Then they collect for the poor Palestinians in the US and even here and people pay up, supposedly to relieve Palestinian suffering, but in the long run to exacerbate it. Yes they probably have enough money to turn the place into another Dubai or Abu Dhabi but it suits Hamas to keep the people in abject poverty dependant on Israel for job. This increases the resentment among ordinary Palestinians while Hamas leaders live it up in the George Cinq, and Las Vegas. I think we can be fairly certain they go short of nothing

malena stool wrote:Goodevening katertaif,

I've just been reading HuffPuff's reporting and comments of the events taking place in Israel. As you rightly point out the IDF are simply responding to rocket attacks from beyond their borders. The Israelis have learnt that turning the other cheek does nothing other than encourage those who wish them harm. While we can but sympathise with the deaths and horrific injuries inflicted on the women and children of both sides, the answer lies with the Palestinian leadership's allowance of Hammas to operate within their country's borders.

As Anna as pointed out, Hammas hide amongst civilians, behind women and children knowing the IDF will be blamed for any civilian deaths, as was shown this morning on Sky News, where Israeli airstrikes had taken out a Hammas leader who was hiding in a house surrounded by civilians, this isn't war, it is terrorism reported as if it were a military conflict.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/09/15-images-of-gaza-under-attack-as-israel-responds-to-hamas-rockets-_n_5570579.html

Good afternoon malena stool

Sympathy for the death of innocent Palestinian women and children is as usual not matched by any sympathy for Israelis. Instead as usual, the apologists are out in force denying that it is even happening. The brutal licentious IDF soldiery, attacking these poor Palestinians for no reason is as usual the cry. This in spite of reporters in Israel telling us that rockets are being fired into Israel daily. It still is not happening. Where these people keep their brains is a mystery.

Then we have Fatah joining in from Lebanon. Fatah are supposed to be moderates which shows two things, Firstly when you get right down to the bottom of Islam there is no such thing as a moderate. Secondly, they are still adhering to the commands of their paedophile prophet to kill Jews on sight. Part of it being their own blindness, in that Israel has no right to defend itself; at least not against Muslim attacks. Otherwise they will all join in. with money and aid if nothing else.

It bodes very badly when Iran gets a nuclear weapon and the means to deliver it. There is no doubt at all they are working towards this, they hardly bother to deny it any more. Once they have it, they will use it against Israel sooner or later, again there is no doubt at all of that. Israel will retaliate, indeed she must and God knows where that will lead.

Iris wrote:

malena stool wrote:The Palestinian leaders would never accept such decadence Iris...

If they took all the money they waste on rockets and bombs, and spent it on doing up the place, it would be looking like Dubai by now.  It's the most bankrolled place on the surface of the planet, and it's a midden.  And that is not the fault of the Israelis.

I heard an Israeli woman on Radio 4 this morning. She spoke about the rockets having been fired from Gaza for a long time and about how Israel protects its citizens. Her house has an alarm system that warns of approaching missiles and in case no one hears it, there is also a visual signal. There are plenty of shelters for Israeli citizens. In contrast, Hamas has not built shelters and, as you say, have spent a great deal of money on rockets and bombs.

I've seen a video this morning where a Hamas spokesman is encouraging people of Gaza to act as human shields. Video on this page.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/07/hamas-spokesman-encourages-gazans-to-serve-as-human-shields?utm_source=Jihad+Watch+Daily+Digest&utm_campaign=d44a032d80-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ffcbf57bbb-d44a032d80-123490937

well I m so glad im not alone in my thoughts. thank you all for your insightful factual posts. ive yet to see unbiased reporting on this situation in Gaza.

tanszi wrote:well I m so glad im not alone in my thoughts.  thank you all for your insightful factual posts.   ive yet to see unbiased reporting on this situation in Gaza.

Seconded tanszi!
Very interesting thread!

This article in the Daily Mail ( I know!) seems quite reasonable.

Extracts:

In the first three days of its air offensive against the Palestinian militant group Hamas — to which Islamic Jihad is affiliated — the Israeli Defence Force struck more than 780 targets in Gaza, including leaders of the organisation, rocket-launchers and missiles which had been deliberately hidden among the territory’s civilian population....

Meanwhile, Hamas has been firing hundreds of its own rockets at Israel from shifting launch-sites in the Gaza Strip.
But what makes this latest outbreak so terrifying in the endless tragedy of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is the extraordinary intensity of both the provocation from Hamas, and the response from Israel.
Hamas, for the first time in years, has been targeting Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. As a result, nearly three million people in these cities were forced into bomb-shelters during that very same World Cup semi-final.
In the past week, Hamas rockets have also been fired at targets as far away as Hadera and Haifa in northern Israel, and at the heavily-protected Dimona plant where Israel’s nuclear warheads are made....

Hamas’s military wing, the Army of Al-Qassam, has only been able to display such ambition because it has recently added a formidable new weapon to its armoury of more than 11,000 missiles — a clutch of Syrian-made M-302 rockets with a range of 100 miles.
Before now, the maximum range of their rockets had been in the region of 50 miles.
But with this dramatic escalation in Hamas’s ability to strike deep into Israel, the Israeli Defence Force is threatening a ground invasion of Gaza.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2688097/Israel-Gaza-teeter-brink-again.html#ixzz37ADsNw7f
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