Mr McCann will return to Britain this afternoon because of work commitments

HiDeHo wrote:

HiDeHo wrote:

I think those of us that remembered read about fduartecarvalho twitter..

Ricardo Paiva,inspector: the turning point was when he got a phone call from Kate. She was crying and asked him to look Maddie's body#mccann
9:14 AM Jan 12th from Echofon

I was beginning to think we had another (shhhh) 'fridge' memory failure!

******************************************

Anna, I finally found it on fduartecarvalho twitter

Brilliant! Thanks HiDeHo.

I was scared it was going to turn into another 'fridge' thread!

On the one hand it highlights how we can be wrong about our sources but it also highlights that we are not always wrong about what we read!

This is from The Daily Telegraph, I think most would agree one of our most reputable papers of all. It not only confirms that Ricardo's evidence was that kate rang him in tears about her dream it also says what I had clearly remembered, SHE WAS ALONE. I think this could be interpreted that Kate was on the verge of confessing exactly what happened to Madeleine and to an officer who had become very friendly with them. I think this must be the officer who Kate says she formerly trusted, he sat and ate meals with them and played with the twins, he had become a friend. But Gerry, on one of his jollies left her feeling vulnerable and fed up.
When he got to hear about Kate beginning to spill the beans he created merry hell for a guess and got Ricardo Paiva moved right away from Kate, off the case!

Madeleine McCann: mother's dream was 'turning point' in investigation, court hears
Police investigating Madeleine McCann's disappearance began searching for her body after her mother, Kate, told detectives about a dream which suggested the toddler was dead, a court heard.

By Fiona Govan in Lisbon
Published: 7:30AM GMT 13 Jan 2010

Previous1 of 3 ImagesNext
Gerry and Kate McCann Photo: EPA Mr Amaral has alleged that the McCanns covered up Madeleine's death Photo: AFP/GETTY
Photo: PA
Police Inspector Ricardo Paiva, who acted as a liaison between the McCanns and Portuguese detectives in the days following their daughter’s disappearance, said the dream was a "turning point" in the investigation.

He said that Mrs McCann told him in a tearful telephone conversation in late July 2007 that she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that police should search for her there.


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Madeleine McCann: parents relive pain of daughter's abduction two years onThe claims came as Kate and Gerry McCann appeared in court to hear evidence on the first day of a hearing to challenge the publication of a book written by Algarve detective Goncalo Amaral.

Insp Paiva told the hearing in Lisbon: “Kate called me, she was alone as Gerry was away and she was crying.
“She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there.

“She gave the impression that she thought she was dead – it was a turning point for us.”

The senior detective said the land was searched but nothing was found. “That is when we decided to send the specialist dogs in. British police informed us about how they could detect the scent of death.”

He admitted that the police had been suspicious of the McCanns from the start of the investigation.

Insp Paiva added: “They disobeyed our request to keep quiet about the details of their daughter’s disappearance while we conducted our investigation. Instead they turned it into a media circus and that gave rise to some suspicions.”

He said that the McCanns should have faced prosecution for leaving their children alone. “They should have been pursued for neglect. People have been arrested for far less – even in the UK.”

The court also heard claims that Madeleine died in an accident in her family's Algarve holiday apartment and her death was covered up by her parents who then concocted a tale of kidnap.

“She died in the apartment as a result of a tragic accident and the parents simulated an abduction after failing to care of their children,” Tavares de Almeida, former chief inspector at Portimao police station during the initial months of the investigation, told the court in Lisbon.

“These were the conclusions of a police report signed by me on September 10 2007,” he added. (in other words it was his conclusions without the benefit of any evidence to back them)

Lawyers for Amaral, who led the team that made the McCanns arguidos – suspects – in their daughter’s disappearance, called witnesses to support the claims outlined in his book. The McCanns arguido status was lifted after ten months in July 2008 when the Attorney General ruled there was no evidence against them. If there was no evidence to back the death theory at the end of the investigation, then there was no evidence when Almeida wrote his report, was there?)

The pair, from Rothley, Leics, came face to face with their detractor for the first time since they were officially made argiuidos in September 2007, four months after they daughter vanished days before her fourth birthday.

Mr Amaral, 50, led the initial investigation into Madeleine’s disappearance from a holiday apartment in Praia da Luz on May 3 2007 while her parents dined with friends at a tapas bar nearby. He was sacked from the case, which remains unsolved.

His book, entitled “The Truth of The Lie”, published in July 2008 claims that Madeleine died in the apartment and questions her parents’ account of events that evening.

It became a best-seller in Portugal selling more than 200,000 copies and went on to be published in six languages and made into a documentary film.

After a year long campaign the McCanns succeeded in getting a temporary injunction banning further sales and it was withdrawn from shelves last September. The couple are suing for libel becuase they believe that the book is damaging the search for their daughter by asserting that she is already dead.

They are expected to ask a judge for around £1 million in damages which they will use to pay for their own continuing hunt for their daughter, who they believe was kidnapped and could still be alive and being held somewhere.

Mr de Almeida told the court: “We have always spoken of a tragic accidental death – not homicide. The McCanns did not kill her but they concealed the body,” (It is not reasonable for a police officer to give such positive "evidence" to a court as to what happened, when in fact, he has no evidence whatsoever to back these assumptions, no UK cop would do this)

Mr de Almeida, who worked under Amaral and was also taken off the case in September 2007, said the decision to designate the McCanns 'arguidos' was made by police after sniffer dogs brought to Portugal from England had carried out their searches.

Giving evidence, Mr de Almeida said that the dogs had identified blood and the scent of a human corpse inside the children's’ bedroom and the dining room of the McCanns’ holiday flat.

The animals also reacted to traces on a piece of cloth in a villa rented by the McCanns after they left the apartment and in the boot of a rental car hired by the family several weeks after Madeleine disappeared.

Mr de Almeida also complained that Portuguese police efforts to investigate the McCanns had been frustrated by their British counterparts. “We were told that the UK would not accept any investigation of the McCanns – there was a lack of co-operation*,” he said.

But later he said that the theory that the parents had covered up Madeleine’s death as outlined in Amaral’s book was one reached by British police on the ground in Portugal too. (When you directly contradict yourself when giving evidence, you are not telling the truth, behaving just like Kate and Gerry is not the way to get to the truth.)
“This wasn’t something invented by Amaral,” he insisted. “It was a conclusion reached by the team of Portuguese investigators as well as British police.” [/b *( How could British Police have done that if they would not countenance any investigation of Kate and Gerry McCann. It is quite obvious they were investigating them and continue to investigate this case. )
Mrs McCann wearing a dark coloured floral dress sat impassively in the front row of the court room beside her husband. The pair held hands and exchanged occasional whispers and nods as they were passed notes by interpreters informing them of court proceedings, which were carried out in Portuguese.

Mr Amaral, dressed in a dark suit and purple tie, was seated at the bench beside his legal team, fifteen feet away from the couple. He spent much of the proceedings [b]with his eyes closed avoiding the direct gaze of the McCanns. (This is more like fair and unbiased reporting, rather than the rubbish we can read in The Daily Mirror and The Sun and suggests Goncalo was being thoughtful and avoiding any provocative behaviour towards the McCanns)
Tuesday’s court hearing in the Portuguese capital was an opportunity by Mr Amaral to have the temporary injunction against publication of his book overturned. Neither he nor the McCanns will be called to give evidence in the hearing which is expected to last a minimum of three days.

The case continues.

So the thing is, has Gerry managed to get almost all reference in the press to this removed, bu The Daily Telegraph remain unmoved ? If Gerry finds it necessary to get this removed from the record just imagine how damning he considers this evidence. IMO, if there is an officer that will well and truly sink the McCanns it is Ricardo Paiva who has been as straight as a die in just honestly and fairly doing his job.

As for Fiona Payne supposedly lying to the police by saying she is an anaesthetist in her rogatory interview, I have never seen such an absurd and petty suggestion.

The police did not ask her to explain the detail of when she was going to move from being a registrar to a consultant or exactly how far she had progressed in her professional training.

If you are working as a registrar doing anaesthetics then you are entitled to call yourself an anaesthetist.

Given that she is a young mom who has no doubt had career breaks and also probably works part time I think some of the gratuitous comments made sound like sex discrimination. It is very hard for moms to progress as fast as a man would, Photon!

What was she supposed to say, well since 1997 I decided I wanted to specialise in anaesthetics and that is all I have ever done, but of course I am not allowed to call myself an anaesthetist, Photon says so, I am really just a general dogsbody

What would it have done for her credibility to even lie to the police about something they would so obviously check, has anyone ever heard of the word "antecedents" and do you not think the police made such checks on all of this lot, and some!!

viv wrote:As for Fiona Payne supposedly lying to the police by saying she is an anaesthetist in her rogatory interview, I have never seen such an absurd and petty suggestion.

The police did not ask her to explain the detail of when she was going to move from being a registrar to a consultant or exactly how far she had progressed in her professional training.

If you are working as a registrar doing anaesthetics then you are entitled to call yourself an anaesthetist.

Given that she is a young mom who has no doubt had career breaks and also probably works part time I think some of the gratuitous comments made sound like sex discrimination. It is very hard for moms to progress as fast as a man would, Photon!

What was she supposed to say, well since 1997 I decided I wanted to specialise in anaesthetics and that is all I have ever done, but of course I am not allowed to call myself an anaesthetist, Photon says so, I am really just a general dogsbody

What would it have done for her credibility to even lie to the police about something they would so obviously check, has anyone ever heard of the word "antecedents" and do you not think the police made such checks on all of this lot, and some!!

She's "been an anaesthetist" since 1997. When did she get married? How many children does she have and when were they born? And 13 years later she's still not completed training?

It is very hard for moms to progress as fast as a man would, Photon!

How am I suppose to know?? I'm only the mother of 3 (sorry that I didn't manage to lose any). Never had a career break - and have had 2 careers. Life sucks, doesn't it??

viv wrote:

Ignorance is bliss

Some women consider being a mother is a worthwhile task! Myself included.

viv wrote:Some women consider being a mother is a worthwhile task! Myself included.

Parsole is on the "attack" Goncarlo band wagon ??

Gerry McCanns wishes to encourage everyone to talk about what cannot be proved, that Maddie died in the apartment and they hid the body.

There are some who would support him in that.

There are others who want to talk about real witness evidence from GPs and former friends of his, The Gaspars who related how he and Payne were doing what paedophiles enjoy doing, having fantasies about sexual acts with a two year old, no matter it is his own daughter.

I am not going to stop looking at the real evidence against the McCanns no matter how much you wish to try with your petty insults. I think you insult yourselves actually given the nature of your comments. And sending the other one in when one is losing it, does not look too good either

If you say so VIV.

I asked you if you were playing tag the other night

PLAY AWAY: Vaughan College crèche workers, Jane
Welsh and Fiona Payne provide play activities for the
children of parents taking the College’s courses.

http://www.le.ac.uk/bulletin/bulletinoctober1999.pdf
(see the lying varmint at the bottom of page 22)

So sorry Photon, you are obviously right, Fiona Payne is actually a creche worker masquerading as an anaesthetist (what pretensions of grandeur eh) Just shows you how rubbish Leicester Police are,

[quote="viv"]PLAY AWAY: Vaughan College crèche workers, Jane
Welsh and Fiona Payne provide play activities for the
children of parents taking the College’s courses.

http://www.le.ac.uk/bulletin/bulletinoctober1999.pdf
(see the lying varmint at the bottom of page 22)

So sorry Photon, you are obviously right, Fiona Payne is actually a creche worker masquerading as an anaesthetist (what pretensions of grandeur eh) Just shows you how rubbish Leicester Police are, [quote]

Is it "thee" FP ?

Here, anyone who took 13 years to complete training (male or female, childless or mother of a football team) would only be hired to change the sheets. If lucky.

Of course not Laffin, it was a joke

Claudia, we have no idea what stage she is at! But a registrar is only just below consultant level. I think in UK there is a culture of the male doctor of the two being the major bread winner with the wife making some sacrifices for the children, but yes in the Payne's case that could be an odd thing to say

viv wrote:Of course not Laffin, it was a joke

Claudia, we have no idea what stage she is at! But a registrar is only just below consultant level. I think in UK there is a culture of the male doctor of the two being the major bread winner with the wife making some sacrifices for the children, but yes in the Payne's case that could be an odd thing to say

Here it doesn't matter what stage the doctor is in. If he/she takes 13 years completing training, no one will hire her/him.
There's a friend of a friend who is a dentist. He took 9 nine years doing what should have been done in six. He had to go work 600 Km from here! (For the record, I wouldn't trust him with my teeth either!)

Hiya Claudia,

But we do not know if she is still training, I think that is very unlikely because the sort of work that she describes equates with someone who can only do that when they have completed their training, ie the most difficult work including pain management etc.

You do not automatically move from being a registrar to a consultant as Photon suggests at the end of your training, you have to successfully apply for a consultants job. There are many fully qualified anaesthetists who are not consultants. They are still under the overall supervision of the consultant but do not do their day to day work under his or her supervision.

There is research to confirm that being part time, being a mom, having career breaks can work against you in getting a job as a consultant because you have to be able to offer a set number of hours etc.

I think it is actually rather more odd that David Payne is not a consultant by now because he is quite a bit older than Fiona and has not had the complication of child birth. As he said in his rogatory there have been a few problems with work and he is also still a registrar. I can imagine he has had a few problems alright!

Gerry, Mat and Russell are all consultants.

What David Payne was describing, being moved from one hospital to another actually mirrors one in training!

I would not be surprised to hear she is more advanced in her career than him, in spite of being several years younger. I think something has erm blighted his career causing him to go off into academia for quite a while.

I suspect his current position may well be Consultant - he's now on the Specialist Register:



I think he may have been a mature (>21) student, and he also spent at least 2 years as Research Fellow.

He is a surgeon, isn't he?

It does seem rather odd to qualify as a surgeon and then go off and do research? Esp if he started late!!

Oh, just noticed the other bit and then specialise in urology, what caused that change?

Tracking his career and the reasons why does not seem an easy thing to do, he used to do research with Gerry now urology?

Oh well, no work with children then!

viv wrote:Hiya Claudia,

But we do not know if she is still training, I think that is very unlikely because the sort of work that she describes equates with someone who can only do that when they have completed their training, ie the most difficult work including pain management etc.

You do not automatically move from being a registrar to a consultant as Photon suggests at the end of your training, you have to successfully apply for a consultants job. There are many fully qualified anaesthetists who are not consultants. They are still under the overall supervision of the consultant but do not do their day to day work under his or her supervision.

There is research to confirm that being part time, being a mom, having career breaks can work against you in getting a job as a consultant because you have to be able to offer a set number of hours etc.

Here in Portugal, after all those years if she still wasn't a consultant she would certainly be in trouble and would be looked at in a funny way. I have a friend who is more or less in middle of her training as an anaesthetic (have to check with her) and she is younger than me.

Photon wrote:

Surgery covers nine specialties. The generality of surgery referred to in this section comprises seven of these: cardiothoracic surgery; general surgery; otolaryngology (ENT); paediatric surgery; plastic surgery; trauma and orthopaedic surgery; and urology.

There are two further surgical specialties with separate entry routes for training neurosurgery and oral and maxillofacial surgery.

http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/specialtytraining/surgery-in-general.shtml

Gosh Photon, well I erm ah well you know would not want him erm ah as you know operating on my bits